Netzigim Report - Rubashkin Failed at Impeachment Attempt against Nash
Many People have inquired as the precise number of votes For and Against Impeachment.
Updated Thursday Afternoon with all the "Yes Votes".
Daashakohol has obtained the following report.
Netzigim from:
1) Chevra Shas,
2) Rayim Ahuvim and
3) CH Yeshiva did not present proper credentials.
(bylaws require 2 official signatures from each shul, their papers had only one signature. At the time when they submitted the documents (Adar 7th and Nisson 6th netzigim meetings) they were advised and asked to correct the matter but they did not do so).
4) Bais Shmuel's individual, present last night is not a netzig and was never a netzig at all, which he himself admitted) -
[These 4 illegal netzigim "voted" for impeachment].
The following shuls voted against impeachment [Note: In this case, when 2/3 of actual YES votes are needed, abstentions are being counted as NO vote]:
10 Shuls Voted No (or obstained which = the same as a No vote)
1. 770
2. Agudas Yisroel
3. Ahavas Moshe
4. Anshey Rubashuv
5. Bris Shalom
6. Congregation 935
7. FREE
8. Khal Chasidim
9. Ksav Sofer
10. Ner Menachem
11 Shuls Voted Yes
1. Ahavas Achim
2. Beis Menachem Mendl
3. Chovevey Torah
4. Elyiahu Nochum
5. Frank Shul
6. Hadar Hatora
7. Kol Yisroel
8. Menachem Nochum
9. Mishkan Menachem
10. Torah Utefila
11. Getzl Shul
Note: A representative of a shul that never submitted any documents to join the Netzigim, walked in after the vote (maybe this vote will go on also for a week), without any credentials and voted to impeach.
2 shuls were absent.
Now we can do the math:
2/3 of 21 = 14
11 YES votes
10 NO votes
Results = IMPEACHMENT FAILED
posted by Netzigim @ Wednesday, June 21, 2006
21 comments
21 Comments:
Your math is faulty;
1. The ntzig from 770 is forbidden from voting on issues where the Rabonim are at odds.
2.Bris Sholom no longer exists as a shul.
3. There is a question as to the status of the ntzig from Nimny's
shul.
Leaving room for other errors, your cheshbon is not so poshut.
Being new here it is very confusing and disturbing to see what is going on in what my family thought was the Rebbe's model community.
What is going on in this community??
What is the point of the Netzigim vote? Impeachment on what basis?
Where is the debate on articles of impeachment?
Why is there a call to impeach Nash at all?
After all that has been happening, it is surprising that there is not a call to impeach Rubashkin...
If this body of netzigim function according to parliamentary procedure and employ by-laws etc., why isn't the proper procedure being used, (ex. installing an investigation committee, giving reports, witnesses, debate before voting).
Furthermore, why is the community kept in the dark about such important matters and not made aware of all of this?
How DOES one become a NETZIG? I assume that Netzig means "representative"?
Who does he represent, the Rov of the shul or the members of the congregation of the shul?
How is the Netzig chosen by his shul?
Is he appointed by the Rov of his shul?
Or is the Netzig voted on by the members of his shul?
Does the Netzig have to have andy credentials? Can he just be a busybody who has an opinion, and has time for all this (as some seem to be)or is it someone who is employed, a responsible, informed and reliable person?
Where are the elders, the heads of the community when such a Hilul Hashem is being made?
Where are the Rabbis, the heads of the Yeshivas, the Rebbe's secretaries? Surely someone has the communities respect who could come forward and end all of this?
It is very depressing to have come here expecting to live in the way the Rebbe wants us to and have to live through all this.
baal tshuva pls go to the shul you daven and ask all this questions to your netzig. looks like you very new in the schuneh.
Ba'al Teshuva, Thanks!
Baal Teshuva (trying) said...
Why is there a call to impeach Nash at all?
Nash (Vaad Hakohol) together with the Netzigim (Representative of the people of CH Shuls) are calling Rubashkin to Justice including allegations of corruption against Rubashkin.
Because Rubashkin has no defense and he knows he is guilty so Rubashkin's only solution is to try and get rid of (impeach) the person who demands that Rubashkin be accountable to Justice and that the case against Rubashkin should be heard by neutral justices.
I think your facts are faulty:
1. If the 770 netzig is forbidden from voting that will mean that "he can't vote" which automatically means "abstaining" which means the same as a NO vote in this case, anyway.
VERY POSHUT CHESHBON!
Also according to the bylaws, impeachments are exclusive matter of the Netzigim and the kehila.
As per the clear instructions of the Rebbe in the famous answer regarding the Rabbonim disqualifying candidates and mixing in community matters and more
So when the bylaws calls for a Din Tora after the impeachment this issue is not and can't be a Rabbonim issue and the Netzig CAN vote.
2. Bris Sholom is an active shul.
There is minyonim every shabbos.
Please go and daven next shabbos there and then retract your self.
3. Their is no Problem with Rabbi Nimny's Shull.
Why don't you tell us the question on the status of the Netzig from Nimny's shul?
Actually I saw the netzig by the hachnosas sefer torah that was made for the shul just about ten days ago.
----
Anonymous said...
Your math is faulty;
1. The ntzig from 770 is forbidden from voting on issues where the Rabonim are at odds.
2.Bris Sholom no longer exists as a shul.
3. There is a question as to the status of the ntzig from Nimny's
shul.
Leaving room for other errors,
your cheshbon is not so poshut.
On Motzet Shabbos Terumoh 5748 ,the Rebbe spoke his living Will, it wasn’t about belongings or properties but rather practical instructions how to continue existing after Gimel Tamuz. The Rebbe said that if and when such era comes about, they should consult and ask Chassidishe Rabbonim and speak to them, and have their opinion and that this is an inyan in "Hiskashrus.
When there IS Machlokos between our RabiniM leaders, How in this mazev are we supposed to carry out the rebbe’s advise?
What Moshe tried to do, is corruption in the highest degree and those who voted in his support are co-conspirators in Rubashkins Crime, by the fact that they are helping to hide a Criminal!
All Netzigim who voted to protect this convicted Felon are guilty of Aiding and Abetting a Felon and Obstruction of Justice!
They will be held legally responsible for their actions.
They can all be subpoenaed in the pending court case, where they will have to tell the judge why they voted the way they did.
Their answer will be, because they KNOW Rubashkin is a Criminal and they wanted to SHIELD HIM so he can continue to do his criminal activity, because this is what the Rabbi of the Community said to do!
I can't wait to see Rabbi Gurarry testifying under oath to the above!
Their is a tape of Rabbi Gurary's inciting "Jihad" speech, which no doubt was instrumental in inciting Rubashkin's riot attack on Best and in the entire criminal netzigim event of aiding and abetting a felon.
At the very least Rabbi Gurary was giving Moral Support to this felon and as a Rabbi he did nothing to stop or criticize Rubashkin's Assault and other Criminal activity at the meeting.
You can see (on the video) how Rabbi Gurarry and others watch Rubashkin in action, in cold blood! and do nothing and say nothing!
The Rebbe said then also the answer to your question.
The Rebbe's answer was very clear:
The Rebbe said that we should ask by 3 Chassidishe Rabbonim and then he continues saying that "IN A PLACE WHERE YOU HAVE LESS THAN 3 YOU CAN BE METZAREF FROM ANOTHER CITY OR FROM THE SAME CITY
Their is a Link to the Sicha on Daashakohol.com, in Right SideBar of the main page.
http://www.vaadhakohol.com/media/Tzavaah.mp3
The Rebbe clearly had foreseen THIS situation and DID NOT require elections but rather the 2 Rabbonim (Rabbi Schwei and Rabbi Osdoba) can TOGETHER choose a 3d Rav whom they both agree on WITHOUT ELECTIONS, unless BOTH want that (which is NOT the case).
Elections are "ideal" but not a "MUST".
In the days of Rabbi Marlow, AFTER GIMEL TAMUZ, the Beis Din did NOT have 3 "elected" Rabbonim, instead whenever Rabbi Marlow felt he needed THREE for something very important, he and Rabbi Osdoba TOGETHER agreed on who should be the 3d Rav "temporarily" (most often it was Rabbi Mangel who is now Rabbi Schwei's 3d Rav permitting to go to court)
Anonymous said...
On Motzet Shabbos Terumoh 5748 ,the Rebbe spoke his living Will, it wasn't’t about belongings or properties but rather practical instructions how to continue existing after Gimel Tamuz. The Rebbe said that if and when such era comes about, they should consult and ask Chassidishe Rabbonim and speak to them, and have their opinion and that this is an inyan in "Hiskashrus.
When there IS Machlokos between our RabiniM leaders, How in this mazev are we supposed to carry out the rebbe’s advise?
Correct, BT, it IS a rude awakening even though many people here try to do more mitzvos and work on themselves-they remain human --with a nefesh HABHAMIS!
You totally missed the point.
I’m not taking sides rather asking a fundamental question. Because it’s not possible to truly heed the advice of the Rabonim due to the fact they disagree.
Maybe it’s better to take a personal outside Rav? I don't know,what should we do?
Sicha, get a life!
A pathetic attempt legitimizing personal failure! It’s not about the Rebbe’s foresight rather our failure to the Rebbe. He trusted us and we failed.
the math is clear. even if they had all the shuls including the illegal netzigim and the shul that came in without credentials they wouldnt have 2/3:
2/3 of 28 shuls=19 (18.66)
28 - 10=18
Does anybody actually have information as to how the Natzig of 770 actually voted?
To Bekitzur:
What's wrong with the
case being heard by neutral
Dayanim? Although that doesn't
guarantee an absence of bias,
certainly, it would be the
"best of a questionable lot."
I always recommended a bais din
where none of the Dayanim know
the parties to the case. If you can find a Zabla like that, that
would be perfectly fine.
Okay, the case is now in the hands
of secular court, probably little
bias there.
practically speaking,
It's quite simple right now.
Not only do we have 3 Rabbonim, you even have a choice of 2 different flavors.
If you prefer, you can speak to (ask your matters of question) the Beis Din of 3 Rabbonim under the leadership of the Mara Deasra Harav Schwei Shelita.
OR
If you prefer you can speak to (ask your matters of question) to the Beis Din of 3 Rabbonim under the leadership of the Mara Deasra Harav Osdoba Shelita.
Neither one of the TWO Beis Din's both of which are THE Badataz - has 3 "elected" Rabbonim (each Beis Din only has 1 elected Rav). But Practically speaking and Truthfully speaking (you can listen to the tape of the Rebbe 100 times, and see clearly yourself) the Rebbe NEVER SAID, in this TZAVAHH, that "the 3 Rabbonim" whom we ask, must be Davka "elected" Rabbonim.
In fact, 99% of the world doesn't even have 3 Elected Rabbonim and right now, we are not any worse off than the rest of the entire world who functions 100% according to the Rebbe's (Tzavaah) Rotzon, without 3 "elected" Rabbonim.
I am not saying that this is ideal and certainly for CH, it "should be better" and different but not because of your reason. As far as your reason is concerned we are "OK" since we have 2 Beis Din's in CH today.
That means that if every Lubavitcher in every city in the world, is "Lucky to have a Beis Din" of 3, then we, in CH are twice as "Lucky" to have a DOUBLE "blessing" of what they have:-)
The Rebbe was clear: Each person must choose a single mashpia. Here we are talking about rabbonim: The mishna says asehlcho rav (singular). Choose yours and act according to his idirection. His machlokisen are not your business. That is part of the problem here every pisher has made himself the rov's guidance counselor.
Dear Friend,
With about 3 MILLION Jews in NYC and more outside the city - no problem at all finding just 3 out of 3 MILLION, who don't know the parties involved.
Zabla is the only way to go.
Again you missed the point.
When the Rabonnim are fighting about everything, we can’t possibly listen to the bis din because it’s impossible to follow both of them!!!
The question remains what to do now?
Anonymous,
YOU are the one who "missed the point"!
You are totally confusing the Rebbe's Gimel Tamuz, Tzavaah/Sicha, which deals with "REBBE QUESTIONS" (which should be answered by 3 Rabbonim, after Gimel Tamuz)
Your are confusing the above with;
Asking Rabbonim if the CHICKEN IS KOSHER or any other simple Halachic question which the Rebbe always routed to Rabbonim, as a Davar Haposhut, regardless.
We don't need "the Rebbe" to tell us that after Gimel Tamuz if you want to know if your Chicken is Kosher or Treif or If Rubashkin is Kosher or Trief, that this is a Shaaloh for Rabbonim!
That's OBVIOUS and has nothing to do with the Rebbe and nothing to do with Before OR After 3 tamuz!
The Rebbe was talking about NON-HALACHIC questions - the TYPE OF QUESTION which is "a REBBE QUESTION" - the type of question we NEVER, had asked to Rabbonim and the type of question we ALWAYS asked the Rebbe and the type of question which the Rebbe Always answered.
For "REBBE QUESTIONS", after Gimel Tamuz, the Rebbe says go to 3 Rabbonim.
You now have your choice to ask your REBBE QUESTIONS to Rabbi Schwei's Beis Din of 3
or pick your choice
To ask your REBBE QUESTIONS to Rabbi Osdobas Beis Din of 3
SIMPLE and real EASY - No Problem at all!
Your Only Real problem is when their is "a NON-REBBE question" (nothing to do with the 3 Tamuz, Tzavaah/Sicha); For example: if Rubashkin is Kosher or if the Fake Elections are Kosher etc.
“770” was not represented as their n’tzig was instructed by the Gaboyim that he may not represent “770” at any meetings related to the Rabbonim dispute. This is in accordance with an agreement reached between the Gaboyim and R’ Sholem Ber Drizin that 770’s n’tzig remain neutral for any issues related to the Rabbonim dispute.
“770” was not represented as their n’tzig was instructed by the Gaboyim that he may not represent “770” at any meetings related to the Rabbonim dispute. This is in accordance with an agreement reached between the Gaboyim and R’ Sholem Ber Drizin that 770’s n’tzig remain neutral for any issues related to the Rabbonim dispute.
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