Chanina/Moishe is a man that loves Crown Heights!
By: A Mechanech in a YeshivahWhy do we have to HATE people we don't agree with?
Who ever 'wins' this fight will have to live and work with the losers.
Why can't you say I have Derech Eretz and Kovod for Rabbi xxxxxxxx but in the issue of what is better for the community his opinion is wrong! But I love him and will go to him to ask HALACHA, but I RESPECTFULLY disagree with him.
Why can't we say Chanina/Moishe is a man that loves Crown Heights and wishes to build our kehilah etc. but he is wrong on the issues!!!
Why am I reading the shmutz of peoples life? bill Clinton was a dog in his personal life.... but he was a great president!
Take it further, why can't we say this Rabbi was a Mazkir/Shliach with close accesses to the Rebbe ZYA/MHM. and I can be Mekabel from them etc. with that said I think they are 100% wrong about X.
We are turning off a generation of bochrim and girls that don't hear that you can be a Chosid and think differently. Rather they hear that anyone that thinks different then me is a Rosho V'ra lo... so when they think a little different... they look at themselves as Reshoim.
When you see the kids of People you hate and talk against, go fray.. you can pat yourself on the back and know that you have helped them on their way R"L.
If a Jew that is a Hindu R"L came into 770 and started to tell you that a cow is g-d r'l, the biggest meshichist with a pin would hug him and put on tefillin with him!!
Why did his Mashpiah not tell him that xxxx is a chosid of the Rebbe that received Kiruvim etc. and is 100% wrong about Moshiach! and you should listen to his farbrengens but not get 'farchapt!
A Mechanech in a Yeshivah
posted by DaasHakohol @ Tuesday, May 23, 2006
35 comments
35 Comments:
Mechanech,
Good point!
Mechanech,
If all Mechanchim were like you, we would all be ok.
To: A Mechanech in a Yeshivah
Thank you so much for your enlightening and heartwarming perspective.
I would like to know how the bochrim in your yeshiva relate to your outstanding attitude.
Yirbu Komocha Beyisroel
While I agree in principal with most of what the mechanech said, I doubt if it's that realistic unless you're with Alice in Wonderland.
Mechanech writes;
"Why did his Mashpiah not tell him that xxxx is a chosid of the Rebbe that received Kiruvim etc. and is 100% wrong about Moshiach! and you should listen to his farbrengens but not get 'farchapt!"
I am sorry to say, Mechanech, that while it sounds so sweet, but in the Real World, it doesn't work that way.
As a Mechanech, you should know, that a Mechunach has to look up to the Mechanech 100%. The Talmid has to feel that his Teacher is the most ideal example of a Dugma Chaya that he would want to live up to be at his level.
In our community, we have some very serious differences on major issues. While we all agree, that their is much more that unites us than what divides us but on issues of Moshiach, for example, it runs very deep.
If to you, the Moshiach Issue MHM vs ZAYA, is like Chocolate vs Vanila Ice Cream, then I can understand your position that you can follow any Mashpiah and just stick to your opinion on Moshiach issues.
The only problem is that it happens to be that this is not the Reality.
The Reality is that if a person comes from a Background where "Zaya" is rubbed in along with high esteem for all those associated with this Shita, then they can't possibly "deeply respect" (to say the least,) those who will say "MHM" and or "Shelita". And vice versa.
The reason you don't understand it is because you don't realize how deep it runs. When something runs very deep, you can't "Look Up" to someone else who believes 100% the opposite.
The Rebbe explains that this is why the Talmidey Rabi Akiva didn't adequately respect each other, although they were true Talmidim of Rabbi Akiva who's name is synonymous with Ahavas Yisroel.
The Rebbe explains that it was because each Talmid felt so strongly about his position that even with Rabbi Akiva's Ahavas Yisroel, he couldn't help himself but almost had to "disrespect" the other.
If this is so for Tamidey Rabbi Akiva, All Achas Kama V'Kama - What can you possibly expect from Anoshim K'Erkenu.
For Tamidim to grow up OK as you are concerned, the only answer is that the "ZAYA people" have their own Yeshivos with their own Mashpiim where each Talmid has the highest esteem for his teachers and the same for the Meshichist camp, to have their own Mashpiim and Yeshivos where their is no conflict in the hearts of the children and bochrim.
A yeshiva like Oholey Torah, who mixes Milchig and Fleishig Teachers and Mashpiim as though it's all one and the same is teaching children that "it doesn't matter" and a feeling of "anything goes" = a "Kaltkeit".
You can't sit and be exposed to fire and water at the same time and expect not to feel the difference unless you are so numb and anesthetized that you are in a Coma or Dead.
If you "Care" then "it does matter"!
The Derech of "the Mechanech, writter", while very nice and sweet, is teaching children indifference and coldness to what matters to them most, in order to tolerate the continued exposure to the opposite extreme.
The result of such a Schizophrenic education is that children adapt to your coldness and indifference that "nothing matters" and "everything is OK" and "anything is tolerable" to the point that they are also "OK" with no Yarmulke or no Teffilin too.
The success of Chassidim comes from the KOCH and FIRE of Chassidim which Misnagdim don't have.
In short the Bottom Line is:
It simply isn't humanly possible to have a Fantastic Chassidishe yeshiva with a Misnaged as a Mashpiah.
Likewise you will never succeed brining up Chassidishe Meshichisten Bochrim if the Mashopia is an Anti.
It isn't humanly possible to be as Acrobatic as you are imagining. Your wishful thinking only exists in wonderland.
"you should listen to his farbrengens but not get 'farchapt"
- is simply an utter impossibility especially since he is known to be very Charismatic.
I agree that we can and should love and respect everyone.
It's only a matter of location:
I love Moshe Rubashkin, doing Chessed from the location in his home. I Love Moshe when he gives out Suits and Hats. He does an excelent job at this and I would hate to ever have him quit what he is so well cut out for best:
Tzedaka and Chessed.
But will not allow allow him to run the CHJCC, not becaue I don't love him but because he isn't cut out for that job in the jcc while he is great at his Tzedaka and Chessed, instead.
Not everyone is cut out to be a "Dancer", Moshe should do what he is best at Givig Out Tzedaka and Chessed.
אני הקטן מסכים לכל מילה של המחנך והלוואי שכולם יפנימו שאנו ל"ע מאבדים את הנוער וצריכים להראות להם שהגם שכתוב שאין דעותיהם שוות אנו מכבדים א' את השני
ובפרט כל רב בישראל מכבדים בדרך ארץ
I am sure the Rabbonim love each other and respect each other, deep down. The only problem is with us, with the community who cause and provoke all this divisiveness amongst them.
By us taking sides, by saying that we only follow this Rav or only go by that Rav, this creates the disharmony between the Rabbonim.
Our own Ahavas Yisroel to treat them as equals will certainly have the desired effect that they too, will co-exist as two loving equal partners in the Badataz.
Rubashkin does good for this community he made peace with simchas beis hashoevah.
Anyone remember that or because that's a good thing everyone turns it around.
Kol Hakavod!
I wish that the one that made this blog will learn from this mechanech and become a mentch.
Actually, it's been many years since Shemtov started making his own Simchas Beis Hashoeva at 770 and their has been 100% peace at all times.
For many, many years there was never any incident since the 2 opposing groups were separated in 2 locations.
This year, Rubashkin with his bright "peace" ideas has caused a fiery Machlokes each and every day of Chol Hamoed, during the dancing as each side from the 2 groups wanted opposite music, opposite speakers and opposite video's.
The Machlokes caused by Rubashkin, this year, by S.B.H. is unprecedented only to the days before we separated from Shemtov.
Rubashkin's so called "peace" at S.B.H. was a 100% total failure and accomplished absolutely nothing at all, except for a senseless machlokes.
It's silly to take 2 groups with opposite interests and apposing beliefs and force them to dance together, where an explosive fight is the only inevitable result.
You can't mix fire and water, unless there is a Mechitza of a metal pot between them. Otherwise you didn't make "peace" rather you made "fireworks" and you made an "explosion". Without a Mechitza of a "Pot", either the fire will kill the water or the water will kill the fire.
Peaceful coexistence only takes place through a peaceful, respectful, separation (of the pot) between the two groups.
yungerman said...
Rubashkin does good for this community he made peace with simchas beis hashoevah.
We must always be Dan everyone Lekaf Zechus.
It's not Moshe's fault.
Moshe means well with all his heart and soul but he has difficulties adjusting to, and recognizing and handling "Boundaries" in life.
Yanky said...
You can't mix fire and water, unless there is a Mechitza of a metal pot between them. Otherwise you didn't make "peace" rather you made "fireworks" and you made an "explosion".
While I Like soo much what the "Mechanech" has said.
But I agree totally with what the "Mashpia" commented( Com. # 5).
How about a Farbrengen "DaaasHaKohol" ?!
By The way:
Kol Hakovod for this Forum
p.s.
may I suggest, any way to number the comments?
well at least the website posted the one and only good thing from mechanech.
according to some here you cannot respect other views about moshiach or anything else. and that we cant be better then rabbi akivas talmidim.
please is that really what the rebbe wanted form us? lubavitch should split into 2 ?
the rebbes ahavas yisroel was so great. putting on teffilin with a yid that just walked out of a mcdonalds. tells us we need to focus on the good and the positive.
yes we can teach our children that there is a difference of opinion and we take this side. but we have to be able to tell them that the other side has it shita and has its merits but we feel that in that subject they are wrong. but we need to respect them witheir opinion. shivim ponim letorah.
lets all respect other with the love the rebbe gave and wanted from us to each other.
let us be better the all the others,
let us agree to disagree on certainn issues. and be untid on all the others that unite.
focus on the positive.
lear the rebbes sichos maamorrim. together.
The colorful diversity of C.H., expresses our beauty.
There are people who have Socialists views that C.H. must be like a Kibutz, where everyone must eat out of the same bowl and everyone must become color blind to give up their G-d given uniquely distinct beauty, in order for their to be true peace in our community.
Nothing is further from the truth.
Just imagine how much fighting there would be between all the shuls, in C.H., if one day, Rubashkin wakes up with a bright idea, to shut down all the individual small shuls in CH and force all their mispalelim to daven in one big "achdus room" (a foolish "Rubashkin & Lang style, of peace")
You would now have 50 Gaboim and 50 Presidents from 50 shuls fighting for the kovod and power to run "the new achdus shul", as they please. Likewise all the different groups from different shuls would all fight to install their own Rav whom they had before and their own shiurim and their own presidents of the shulls and fight over who will get the aliyos and who will daven for the amud and argue about countless other things.
The fact that we have the blessing of a "split community" who are split into 50 shuls, this seemingly, "ugly split", brings peace that each shull does what they want, when they want to, the way they want it and under their own leadership which is totally split and cut off from any say, from any other group, from any other one of the other 49 shulls.
Each shull can vote if they want to say Yechi 3 times or 100 times or not at all. If one shull made it their policy to say Yechi and some Mispalelim don't feel comfortable with that, they don't' have to "fight" nor do they have to feel upset or even be sad about it.
All they do is join another shull who's policy it is to not say Yechi or where they say Zaya 3 times or 100 times and everyone is 100% Happy that they got exactly what they want.
Separation brings true peace.
Forcing the entire world into one Cholent Pot, Rubashkin style, without their respective boundaries, brings nothing but Mahlokes.
The 50 SPLIT shuls, don't have to fight with each other and they can respect and love each other but they are 100% split in that no one from one shul has any say at all, whatsoever, in anything, of how the other shull is run, the shull policy, who are their Rabbonim or Gaboim or Mashpiim etc.
The same thing happens when you have two or more Yeshivos, one that says Yechi and another that says Zaya for example. Each Yeshiva can respect an love the other yeshiva yet be totally independent in their expressed views and policy.
Oholey Torah had the Monopoly on a Boys Yshiva in CH. Then came Luabvitcher Yeshiva. Was that so "ugly" to have 2 "split" yeshivos? Beis Rivka had the Monopoly on Girls Schools and now we have Beis Chaya Mushka and Benos Menachem, is that also an "ugly" split?
When different people of different Shitos, are forced into one room it becomes impossible for each one to express his view fully, without infringing on the feelings, beliefs, views and shitos of another one, which makes machlokes inevitable - an accident waiting to happen.
If each side has their own turf, each one expresses themselves as their conscience dictates, freely, with no possibility of offending anyone else.
A recipe for a guaranteed and lasting, true peace.
an alter said...
please is that really what the rebbe wanted form us? lubavitch should split into 2 ?
Chatzky, R Michoel is now in Olam Haemes, so he knows the truth.
Mechanech,
Everyone loves Rubashkin. How can anyone not love the money he gives out, for Tzedaka (without considering the source of the funds).
I don't think anyone of us would object to showering Rubashkin with the most beautiful bouquet of roses full of love and best wishes, as longs a it comes along with his immediate and permanent resignation.
to "the key to peace..."
all is well in the split as you make it when they respect each other but if a shul has its policy to say yechi and someone walks in and start screaming at the people saying yechi is that a good split and vice versa if a shuld doesnt say and a person walks in and shouts yechi is that a peacefull split.
peace is as was at har sinai i think shavous is comming "ish echod belaiv echod" lets us learn the rebbes sichois and strive to rerach true ahavas yisroel. not the split one the one respects all. loves all. v=even if they disagree.
again the rebbe (i dont think ) wanted 2 lubavitchs. yes one lubavitch (and yes a chulent pot) he didnt make seperate farbrengen for frum frai bt etc..
dont force anyone to do anything. altz bercai noam veshalom. all you have to do is ask oneself. is this the way the rebbe wanted it. through learning what the rebbes sichois and maamorim we will know how to truely act.
regarding yeshivois the same is true. if you learn in one that is great but dont knock the other one. dont FORCE your opinion on others. respect them. discuss things . teach things. and who used the loshan "beoifen hamiskabel"
one lubavitch with many different hats and even many different opinions. but not as rabbi akivas talmidim but as the rebbes talmidim
To: An Alter
You are right in principal but it simply is not practical as proven by our recent history in C.H. for the past 12 to 14 years since 27 Adar to Gimel Tamuz.
Of course everyone agrees that "One Lubavitch" is what the Rebbe would ideally want and what we always had when we could see the Rebbe.
We had plenty of Machlokes then too, but because we could see and hear the Rebbe, it was the bitul to the Rebbe which made the peace.
Today, unfortunately, where we don't see the Rebbe their is no longer any one single point of bitul which brings about peace with everyone in the same room.
Everything you said is based on when we were able to see the Rebbe and it could only possibly work, as soon as we will have the Hisgalus.
Until then you have a choice to live in dreamland and imagine impossible dreams and therefore try to Force "peace", Rubashkin Style, or be smart and concede to the reality that since we can't see and feel the Rebe's presence now, the only chance for peace is for us to co-exists independently respecting our separate individuality.
to the key to peace
your qoute
the only chance for peace is for us to co-exists independently respecting our separate individuality.
exactly the opposite of the rebbes teaching. we still have a rebbe albeit not that we can see but we all agree that our gosl is to strive for what the rebbe wants.
and use words like what the rebbe "idealy" wants. the question to every chosid (and he doesnt have to post what he thinks this is not a litmus test ch"v) is a chosid is a person who belives in the rebbe and strive his best to do what the rebbe taught us and teaches. we now what it is and we need to strive to reach it . "ein hakodoish boruch hu bu betruniya im breyoisuf" even more so the rebbe.
let us strive for what the rebbe wants and we all dont disagree with that. let us better ourselfs. and not be bust force others.
learn whatthe rebbe wants from us and lets do it
brocha vehatlacha
The Key to Peace said...
to Force "peace", Rubashkin Style
Now that you pointed out, I am beginning to realize that Rubashkin is really a very fine fellow who loves peace and tries his hardest to make peace.
Rubashkin just doesn't know how to do it.
Can you imagine someone trying to be a peacemaker, to make Sholom Bayis between a couple, and if the couple refuses to reconcile their differences the Marriage Counselor will recommend installing an additional Husband or an Additional Wife into the home to tip the scale in favor of the Husband against the wife or vice versa?
Rubashkins failed attempt to install additional Rabbonim on-top of the heads of the existing Rabbonim without their joint approval is exactly the same as installing an additional Husband or Wife, in a troubled Marriage, in order to make "peace".
an alter said...
and use words like what the rebbe "ideally" wants.
I see that you still don't get it, so allow me to be a little more blunt and clear about it.
When it come to marriage and peace in marriage the Rebbe usually gave his request and encouragement and Haskama and Brocho for Marriage.
How about Divorce?
Did you ever hear of anyone that was encouraged by the Rebbe, point Blank that he or she should get divorced?
The fact that the Rebbe didn't say it clearly in so many words, 'Go get divorced', does that mean that all Lubavitcher who divorced C.V. went against the Rebbe's wishes?
Obviously, you may say, that the Rebbe "ideally wants the couple to reconcile" if possible.
Usually reconciliation in marriage is possible.
The down to earth reality is that many times reconciliation is not possible and only a separation and divorce c.v. will stop the Machlokes.
In this case, if Rubashkin will want to stop the Get, by force of pointing a Gun to the couples head, to stay together, he hasn't made any real peace but is rather forcing them to stay locked up in the same room to continue to fight.
re: the discussion of peace in marriage and divorce
their is a vort that why does maseches gittin come before maseches kidushin because hashem is makdim the refuah before the maka
to the key to peace
i am not and was not talking about rubashkin period. i was talking about each individual chusid.
i mean me and you
I also mean every Chossid, me and you. Isn't Rubashkin is still a chossid too?
an alter said...
to the key to peace
i am not and was not talking about rubashkin period. i was talking about each individual chusid.
i mean me and you
rabbi leibel groner, actually uses the term "the Rebbe MHM ZYA", becuase there there is no contradiction in saying that
finally someone wrote something nice on this blog and everyone goes and says "he is right but...."
remember, it was the אפס כי עז העם that the מרגלים made their mistake...
ki am kshey oref hu, is regarded as a Maaleh also
I heard that Rubashkin's team is very nervous about the court case and they keep on sending people to rav shcwei to see if they can strike a deal to get it taken out of court.
Does anyone have any details on this?
Does anyone think Chanina and Yanky Herzog were more cut out to run the community???
I am sure if we would check each Vaad's books, money would be missing, too.
So why pick on Moishy???
Anonymous,
Chanina was an upstanding citizen, with excellent political connections and a track record of helping the community, tirelessly for countless years.
Hertzog has been serving the community for many years before he was elected.
All prior Vaad Members "smelled something fishy" with Brook, but no one except Hertzog had the Guts and Self Sacrifice, to risk his good reputation in order to uproot the corruption.
Hertzog deserves more credit than any other prior Vaad Hakohol member, being the one, and only one, who had the true Mesiras Nefesh to sacrifice his own, good standing position in the Vaad, in order to be an honest Whistle-Blower to uproot corruption in the community.
If you ever received a summons for a seat belt or cell phone, you have committed a "crime" and you too, are officially called a "criminal" according to the nypd.
I doubt that Hertzog never got a "speeding ticket" but to compare that to Rubashkin who is a Convicted Felon for Check Fraud, yet he, single handedly, currently controls all the CHJCC 2.5 million dollars of funds, is outrageous!
I like the way you say it.
Thanks
Every crook assumes that the rest of the world is just as crooked as they are.
Anonymous said...
I am sure if we would check each Vaad's books, money would be missing, too.
Dear Peretz,
You are sorely misled.
If you are saying Yanki and Chanina are princes, them Moshe is a king.
Robin Hood is sometimes called:
"The Prince of Thieves"
or both Prince and King:
"King of Outlaws and prince of good fellows!" as Richard the Lionheart calls him
Shalom Ber said...
If you are saying Yanki and Chanina are princes, them Moshe is a king.
My 2 cents –
Enjoyed enormously the debate between “ an Alter” and “Key to Peace”
I must say, that “Key to Peace” makes much more sense!
Wish there are more of this.
A) The issue is NOT “who is more cut out to run the community”
The issue is: who made “Moishy” for a ROSH?!
He was elected to “serve” the community. NOT “to run” the community.
To help people, not to ruin people
B) The Book’s from ALL previous Vaad’s were open for everyone to see
Actually the “netzigim” DID look at the books
Certainly it was “open” for every vaad member!!
(In chanina’s and yanky’s case: Noochie had FULL access)
C) The “pick” on “Moishy” is:
He is a bulldozer, that would not co-operate with ANYONE
THAT’S scary!
It’s wonderful when this energy and wildness is busy with kindness.
But when its “out of control” with everything, that’s a real problem!
That can RUIN the community (not run …..) for life!!
Anonymous said...
Does anyone think Chanina and Yanky Herzog were more cut out to run the community???
I am sure if we would check each Vaad's books, money would be missing, too.
So why pick on Moishy???
8:56 PM
It would be beneficial l'maan hoemes if Mechanech would identify himself in some way. At least let him hint where he is comming from. If you read his posting well, he does not practice what he preaches. There is a subtle undertone leaning towards one direction. He seams to be throwing sharp jabs to one side. VEHAMAIVIN YOVIN!
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