770 Talk - Shavuos 5766 – Anash Public Protest against Lush, Segal and Zirkind
770 was completely filled with men women and children who were awaiting to hear Krias Hatorah and the Aseres Hadibros, when once more Rubashkin and his sympathizers’, succeeded in turning this auspicious and joyous occasion into a blazing Machlokis and Protest scene in the presence of thousand of Rabbonim and Anash, in 770.
It all started, when Anash watched in horror, how the appointed Gabai for the day, Mr. Lush, a close ally of Rubashkin, exploited his position at the Bima to give two of the Aliyos, (traditionally reserved for the most respected members of the community,) to the two disputed candidates who lost the Elections, (to become the Rabbi’s of the community,) when 2/3 of the community stayed home to protest their attempted and failed election by Rubashkin and Company.
Everyone in 770 was thoroughly outraged at Lush, particularly in regards to his giving the Aliya to Segal, against whom their is not only a Siruv from Rabbi Schwei & Beis Din, but there is also a Psak Din (Rabbinical Ruling) by Rabbi Schwei & Beis Din which expressly prohibits giving any Aliya, at all to Segal, because of the Siruv against him. This Psak Din was prominently displayed in the Official Gaboim’s Letter Box, in 770.
As soon as Segal and Zirkind were given the Aliya, Several members of Anash publicly protested against this shameful act of giving Aliyos to people who masquerading as Elected Rabbi’s of the community, while in fact they are not. Especially against Segal who is also in contempt of Rabbinical Court to appear to Beis Din of Zabla to face the charges against him.
“They Are Not Rabbonim and that they should not be given Aliyos for the sole purpose to try and help them be perceived as though they were the Elected Rabbonim, which they are not”, Anash were protesting.
Krias Hatorah, at Aseres Hadibros, in 770 is the only time of the year, where not only is 770 filled with Men Women and Children, but in particular it is filled with all of the worlds greatest Lubavitcher Rabbonim from all 5 continents, who always make it a point to come to 770, on Shavuos.
The protest against Gabai Lush, giving Aliyos to those masquerading as Elected Rabbi’s, was very well received and applauded by the vast majority of Anash who agreed that the Gaboim have no right to take sides in the disput between the 2 Rabbonim.
After Davening, the first day of Shavuos and Shabbos at the Farbrengens, everyone was talking about it in 770.
Mashpiim pointed out that perhaps the most significant element of the Machoah, was the fact that it was done in front of all the most prominent Lubavitcher Rabbonim, from all over the world, and absolutely non of them protested against it, which clearly proves that this protest was officially accepted by all Rabbonim throughout the world.
Mashpiim quoted the famous saying of our sages: “Mideshasku Rabonon,…. Shma Mina D’Odu Ley”, Our sages say that Whenever a major event of great significance happens in front of many great Rabbonim and they remain silent, this means that they Approve. In this case, since no one protested against the Machoah, it clearly indicated that it has the unanimous approval of all of the hundreds of the world wide Lubavitch Rabbi’s who were present in 770 at this most auspicious moment of Aseres Hadibros!
It was for this very same reason, that the Rebbe himself had also voiced his own protest against the Gaboim of 770, several years ago, when the Rebbe said it was an Arkesa D’mesane, when Gaboim deliberately exploit giving the most prominent Alyos, to the wrong people, for the sole purpose of undermining the position of those who truly are the proper Elected Rabbonim.
Similarly, at the Main Farbrengen in 770, the second day of Shvuos, which is always attended by all of the greatest Lubavitcher Rabbonim from all over the world, many spoke out about a variety of issues. Rabbi Glukowsky from Israel, who is the main Secretary and coordinator of the entire Lubavitch Rabbinical organization of all of Israel, was also granted the opportunity to speak at this grand central farbrengen in 770.
Rabbi Glukowsky spoke about Shalom, Peace, in the community, which was understood by everyone to be referring specifically to the Rabbonim issues. However, even Rabbi Glukowsky, like all other world wide Rabbonim in 770, did not dare to criticize the public protest in 770, against Lush and against the Segal and Zirkind, which stated that they were not the elected Rabbonim and should not be treated as such.
The Grand Farbrengen in 770 on Shavuos was attended by Rabbi Schwei as ususual, however Rabbi Osdoba was not seen at this Farbrengen in 770 (nor at the previous Shabbos Achdus, farbrengen before Shavuos).
posted by DaasHakohol @ Sunday, June 04, 2006
110 comments
110 Comments:
Yossel Losh does not make decisions by miself, every action on the bima is coordinated between all the gaboim.
Jo Losh didn't daven in 770 the entire Yom Tov... He came only to give alios to Segal and Zirkind... and left... what could be described as: 'ba'al machlokes' more than such a person... last elections were last time I have voted for him...
If yossel Losh id it and as you say the other Gaboyim did not protest then they must have all agreed. or at least the majority.
Not true - the other gabboim are saying that it was Rabbi Osdoba who told him to give Segal and Zirkind Aliyos. Could he have said no?
ידו בכל בכל מחלוקת רובאשקין בראש
!
Dont kid yourselves. This is all the work of the biggest baal machloikes moshe rubashkin. The kehila must get rid of him right away. Hes a menace and dangerous!
Yisroel,
You are wrong, because the Gaboim are not supposed to take sides, as DaasHakohol pointed out, everyone was saying in 770.
Look this is the situation:
Rabbi Schwei paskened several weeks ago, that it is forbidden for Segal to get an Aliya at any time (regardless if it's Shvuos).
Now comes Rabbi Osdoba, several weeks later, which Rabbi Osdoba is 100% rightfully entitled to argue, saying the opposite of Rabbi Schwei's pask din.
The Gaboim are stuck in the middle, but it's very, very, wrong for Lush and any other Gabai to take sides.
Yisroel said...
Not true - the other gabboim are saying that it was Rabbi Osdoba who told him to give Segal and Zirkind Aliyos. Could he have said no?
Kol Hakavod to Zalman Lipsker!
I heard that he was the only one of the Gaboim, who said that he is not mixing in to the Machlokes and Zalman refused to vote to give an aliya to them.
Yossy,
Thanks for the report.
The Gaboim like Zalman Lipsker deserve our vote, next time, when they are up for elections.
We must all remain united and not vote for Gaboim, who favor One Rav against the other!
All of us, whether we are Gabbaim or just Anash, we can only say that we are "fair and neutral", if we make sure not to behave the way Lush did.
We must never take sides between the Rabbonim! We should respect them both equally.
It's the only hope and the only way out of the Machlokes.
Whenever the 2 rabbonim can't agree, then our job is:
SHEV V'AL TAASEH odif.
Lush: remember, Loy Nishkach V'Loy Nislach
whats wrong with them getting aliyos?
why cant they get aliyas as regular people they didnt even get aseres hadibros?
770 did not take sides they gave shvei aseres hadibros
i think this was fair
It was Lush's turn to be up there and he did what they told him to.
If it was lipskers turn to be up there he would do the same.
Levi,
I disagree with you.
Lipsker is a real Mentch, a man of real character.
If Lipsker, ever didn't feel something was was the right thing to do, he wouldn't be up there, just following orders.
He would rather walk out and let another Gabia do the "dirty work", rather than him having the "kovod" hameduma to go against the Mara Deasra Harav Shvei Shelita, Befarhesya, Chas V'Sholom.
Levi said...
It was Lush's turn to be up there and he did what they told him to.
If it was lipskers turn to be up there he would do the same.
770 yungerman,
Apparently you didn't read the article well. It mentioned clearly 2 reasons why it was wrong:
1) Benogeha to Segal, their was a clear Psak din against this one individual that because he was a Mesarev Ledin (Has was called to a Din Torah and refused to come), therefore his punishment is that it is forbidden to give him an aliyah on any day of the week EVER.
2) Benogeah to Zirkind (also applies to Segal), the only reason Zirkind was given an Aliya was because the people who wanted him to have the aliya, their intention was to show that he is kaviyochol a Rav (Chas V'Sholom).
In truth he is only a Fraudulently "elected" Rabbi, because the entire election was fraud to begin with, against Halacha and atop of that, the votes were tampered with and on top of that the actual number, of counted votes, was falsified, unsupervised etc....plus many more falsehoods associated with this fake election.
770 yungerman said...
whats wrong with them getting aliyos?
Why are you always saying that the electoins were against Halocho , Rav Osdoba endors it , and he himself went to vote, and he said that everyone should vote
Zalman,
You sound like Rubashkin, who thinks that once he gives some Tzedaka then "it's fair" that he can now do as many other Corrupt Averos as he wants, because "he did some chesed...something good...so now he can be bad...to make it "fair and even".
How ridiculous!
Their is a clear psak Din from Rabbi Schwei which says it is FORBIDDEN to give Segal an Aliya EVER period, under any circumstances, shvuos or not shvuos.
What kind of shtus is this to say, that if they gave Rabbi Schwei an aliya of Aseres Hadibros, then everything is "ok" now..
Even they gave Rabbi Schwei 1,000 aliyos and zero to Rabbi Osdoba, it would still not change the the ever lasting Torah and Halach which says that it's FORBIDDEN al pi din to give Segal any Aliya because he is a Mesarev Ledin!
First Rabbi Schwei said it was forbidden, then several weeks later Rabbi Osdoba contradicts his fellow Rav and does want him to have an Aliya.
One Rav says it's forbidden the other is matir.
The Gebaim took ONE SIDE (one Rav) against the Psak Din of the other!
zalman said...
770 did not take sides they gave shvei aseres hadibros
i think this was fair
To Anonymous:
The Halacha does say that it is forbidden to make such elections without the approval of both Rabbonim.
True, Rabbi Osdoba is a rav but he is only ONE Rav and the Halcha says the BOTH have to agree to elections before you can make them otherwise it is nul and void and irrelevant etc.
It also happens to be simple common sense, that when you have 2 bosses of a Beis din, both boss's have equal rights and both have to agree, before making any elections.
Just like in a household, where their are 2 parents, even if they disagree and there is no shalom bayis, it would be the biggest chutzpah in the world, for the CHILDREN to decide that:
"they will bring home a New Wife or a New Husband", on top of the other ones head and against their will, with "good intentions", in order to solve the Stale Mate, of the 2 parents who aren't getting along well!
EVEN IF and when they are fighting amongst themselves on each and every single issue. It's a sad story but it doesn't give the children the right to tip the scale of the balance of power, of one parent, against, and in favor, of the other parent!
Rav Osdoba is of course entitled to his own opinion of how he understands the halacha.
But as far as we the people are concerned, we have no right to do anything unless they BOTH agree, otherwise it's against Halcha for us all and it's a Cutzpah on our part.
Anonymous said...
Why are you always saying that the elections were against Halocho , Rav Osdoba endors it , and he himself went to vote, and he said that everyone should vote
just because all the Rabbonim didn't criticize the the protest against Segal and Zirkind, doesn't prove that they agree that Segal and Zirkind and Lush are all wrong.
perhaps they were too shy or too timid to say anything?
To Anonymous:
It's the Netzigims job to review Rubashkins books, al pi Torah and al pi the Law. It's also the Netzigims job to follow up and follow through on what the Rav/Rabbonim, wants.
Rabbi Osdoba gave a Letter to Rubashkin saying that Rubashkin didn't have to show the books because the executive committee was not respectful of a "talmid chochom".
Rabbi Osdoba did not explain who this talmid chochom was, if Rubashkin was the Talmid chochom who was criticized for not showing the books or if Segal was the Talmid chochom, and the only "sin" of the Netzigim was to read the letter of the Mara Deasra Harav Schwei which said that Segal is being called to a Din Torah...
Whatever the case...you see how sensitive Rabbi Osdoba is that one must not be Mevazeh a Talmid Chochom (whoever he may be).
Now I ask you:
Is their any bigger disgrace to a Talmid Chochom, than to publicly humiliate him in front of the entire 770, thousands of Anash, to say that these two people are not Rabbonim and shouldn't be getting Aliyos?
In such a case, when such big public insult takes place and hundreds of Rabbonim are present and not even one protests, it is certainly the biggest statement that the reason they don't protest is because all the Rabbonim agree that Lush did wrong by going against the Psak Din of Rabbi Schwei
Anonymous said...
just because all the Rabbonim didn't criticize the the protest against Segal and Zirkind, doesn't prove that they agree that Segal and Zirkind and Lush are all wrong.
perhaps they were too shy or too timid to say anything?
In my opinion:
Once a Rav allows a case to go in court he loses the right to have the defendant be placed into a Siruv.
Since Rabbi Schwei permitted it to go to court, he can't have it both ways, and prohibit him form getting an aliyah.
Anonymous,
You are wrong.
Proof is Maaseh Rav, that the entire Beis Din of all 3 Rabbonim, Rabbi Marlow and Rabbi Heller and Rabbi Osdoba, have placed Fisher not only into a Siruv but into a Cherem for his refusal to Show the Books (Just Like Rubashkin currently refuses) and for his refusal to come to a Din Torah of Zabla (also just like Rubashkin currently refuses).
Although the Beis Din not only permitted Fisher to be taken to court but actually told the Vaad Hakohol that it was their obligation to prosecute Fisher in court (for civil claims) - yet The Cherem against Fisher remains to this day, even though it was sent to court.
This means that regardless of the permission to take them to court, Rubashkin and Segal may also possibly be placed into a Cherem, just like Fisher was!
Anonymous said...
In my opinion:
Once a Rav allows a case to go in court he loses the right to have the defendant be placed into a Siruv.
Oholei Torah dinner for the mikve honoured boymelgreen, it must means that they agree with them!
I agree that it was wrong to give Segel an Aliya but what was wrong with giving one to Zirkind there is no siruv on him he is someone that is respected by most of the community regardless of being elected or not.
And Rabbi gluckowsky was there too honouring boymelgreen, rubashkin and osdoba.
To Zev, I think that HORAV OZDOBA knows HALOCHO better then Zev ,period.
With all the Rabbonim from around the world in CH now, perhaps they can rescue our desperate community!?!
Please, Hub Rachmonus...
It's perfectly understandable that OT honored someone (Boimelgreen) who insults Rabbi Schwei because they did it for the Money. If OT is offered a lot of money by anyone, it's a Nisayon.
But we the community must make OT understand that, when they knock on our door to ask us for money for OT, we should send them back to the Machlokes Macher, Boimelgreen.
OT must understand that they can't spit the community in the face by honoring someone who openly insults the Mara Deasra, unless they don't want to see any money from the rest of CH, ever again.
Anonymous said...
Oholei Torah dinner for the mikve honoured boymelgreen, it must means that they agree with them!
Where was Shlomo Segal? He didn't show up by the ot event? I heard that after the big mess in shul when he got the aliya.. he came to realization that he has no chances here... and he is in a very bed mood...
Shmuel:
The Gemara says:
"Sahadi Shakre Auzlayu Zilu" which means that when someone "pays off" (hires for cash, "honors", i.e. paying with Kovod instead of paying with green backs), for someone to do their "Dirty Work", the people doing the dirty work should know that that even the person who hired them, considers them to be "Low Life's", and hired the "Bums" (as the Psouk says) for this very reason of who they are... i.e. hired such people who will do anything exchange for some Kovod or Money.
The same is true when any Mosod agrees to "Honor" anyone who is known to be very insulting to the Mara Deasra, the Mosod showers them with Kovod, knowing full well that they have absolutely no respect at all for him as person per say.
They don't respect "him" the person.
They respect only the Money.
Proof is that the moment the Gevir stops giving money, his entire big Kovod is History.
If they had any respect for the person as a person they would honor him without his money too.
Further more, the exact quantity of Kovod, dispensed by each Mosod to their respective "honorees" is directly proportional to the amount of cash they expect to be able to extract from the individual.
Clearly this is "respect for the Dollar" not respect of a person.
To Shmuel and To Boruch:
As a Member of one of the Mosods Committees, I can tell you the following:
OT didn't honor Boimelgreen, for his greatness as a person, at all, whatsoever. If they thought he was a fine person, they would honor him without, Boimelgreen having to "PAY for his Kovod".
If Zalmen Der Shiker gave OT a Million Dollars for the Mikveh, they would "honor him" EXACTLY THE SAME.
He honored them equally as much and "fairly" as he did for Yosul Motchkin.
Yisroel, australia said...
And Rabbi gluckowsky was there too honouring boymelgreen, rubashkin and osdoba.
...wow, the list is getting bigger...
The alter Rebbe says that this is a world "Olam Shehaklipos Govrim Boy"
Their is (and will be) always more bad than good and always more corruption than honesty until the ultimate Hisgalus of the Rebbe MH"M
Anonymous said...
...wow, the list is getting bigger...
Shalom Ber, that's my point exactly.
Yisroel, australia
That's my point too!
From your argument it's obvious that some people's Posek Achron, depends only on where, when and how they will get more Kovod or Money or Power etc.
That's exactly the entire problem with Rubashkin's Corruption Corporation and all his supporters etc.
...
i dint kjnow that insulting the morah dasrah was a bad thing?
....
Alter,
Your not the only one who didn't know. Neither does Rubashkin and all his supporters.
I think that perhaps this is the reason why the Vaad L'Maan Kovod Harabonim created this web site, to teach you.
an alter said...
i dint kjnow that insulting the morah dasrah was a bad thing?
רציתי לשאול:
כתבו כאן שזלמן ליפסקער הצביע נגד זה שנתנו עלי' לסגל וצירקינד
האם אין זה בגדר הולך רכיל מגלה סוד כמו שנאמר אצל בית דין שאסור לא' לומר מה אעשה שחברי אמרו כך ואני אמרתי אחרת
To Berl:
What's this tzedaka bashing?
Now don't get me wrong. All the
tzedaka and chesed in the universe
does not exempt anyone, including the Rubashkins, from answering allegations, even in court, from an aggrieved party that they have been wronged.
But why take the benefit of tzedeka
and chesed away from them?
Consider this:
Some 15 years ago, in the
aftermath of the pogrom, then
Mayor Dinkins was under fire
because of his response to an
incident, where a black man was
roughed up for stealing clothing
from the Kollel, behind 770.
One lady shouted at him, "YOU
JEW HATER." He responded,"now
this 'Jew hater' passed
legislation which made it
possible for Russian Jews to
settle here..."
What did the community leaders
say? "That cannot be taken away
from him."
Here we have someone whose
negligence caused death, trauma,
property and other damage to
Crown Hts Jews, yet, the good he
did "cannot be taken away from
him."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but did
Rubashkin cause problems anywhere
near Dinkins?! I don't think so.
Yet, many of you out there want
to take their tzedaka and chesed
away, whereas, in the case of
some shmutzy goy,"cannot be taken
away."
Can somebody explain this? Does
not sound fair to me. Thanks.
Anonymous,
What you say, applies only to a Beis Din.
A Beis Din, is not up for re-election every few years. The Gaboim and Vaad Hakohol are elected every few years.
The public has to "look them over" and "size them up" if they are fit for the job or to give the job over to others who will do it "right" or at least "better".
The same goes for the Netzigim, in some Shuls, they are elected. Even in the shuls where they are "appointed" they are accountable to the entire Tzibur who davens in the shull, because if the Tzibur finds out that the Netzig didn't do "the right thing" (in their opinion), then they make a tumult in shull and someone else will be appointed to replace them - as has happened several times in the past few months in CH.
The Author of the Book "DaasHakohol", Reb Yosul Reitzes, who headed the Netzigim for many years and successfully built it up and built up Kovod Harabonim in CH to a very high level (except for recently when he went sour) always maintained that the Netzigim Reports, reflect each and every Netzig's Vote, who voted, for or against any resolution, regardless of "the Majority Rules", outcome of the Vote.
Reitzes was right in this, that the entire community must always know exactly how each and every elected official voted, so they can decide if the want to vote for him next time too, or to throw them out.
Zalman will get my vote, and the other Gaboim will NOT get my vote and not the vote of everyone else in the community who believes, that the Gaboim are not supposed to "take sides in the Machlokes" of the Rabbonim!
Anonymous said...
רציתי לשאול:
כתבו כאן שזלמן ליפסקער הצביע נגד זה שנתנו עלי' לסגל וצירקינד
האם אין זה בגדר הולך רכיל מגלה סוד כמו שנאמר אצל בית דין שאסור לא' לומר מה אעשה שחברי אמרו כך ואני אמרתי אחרת
there was no vote among the gabboim on the aliyes it was Loshes turn and he can do as wishes and be responsible for the consequences. but i think that the other 3 gabboim should make a machoeh
מצד והייתם נקיים
Dear friend said...
But why take the benefit of tzedeka
and chesed away from them?
I have not seen any comment by anyone "to take away" the Mitzva or the Zchus of Tzedaka.
The only problem is with people who specifically use it as an excuse to justify their wrongdoing.
For example:
When Rubashkin was challenged why he refuses to show the books, as the law requires, he responded by showing a letter form Rabbi Osdoba which states that he is great person because he did a lot of Chesed.
However the Netzigim never disputed that he is a great person for his Chesed, that may be true.
It was Rubashkin himself who used this argument to protect himself from having to be accountable "because" he gave some Tzedaka.
That's what Rubashkin said to the Netzigim, when he refused to hand over the books.
Dear friend,
Didn't the Rebbe say not to take Fishers' money that he gives for Tzedaka?
Dear friend said...
But why take the benefit of tzedeka
and chesed away from them?
Rabbi Schwei never mentioned anything that Segal cannot get an aliya.
Only Fisher was placed into an actual Halachic Cherem.
Krinsky and Shem Tov had a letter hanging in 770 against them for years which said that they had a Din of a "Mesarev Ledin".
If Lush gave an Aliya to Krinsky (which I don't doubt that he would, if he could).....
What do you think would then happen to Lush?
The same thing is now, with Segal who has the exact same psak din and "good standing" as Krinsky and Shem Tov.
Anonymous said...
Rabbi Schwei never mentioned anything that Segal cannot get an aliya.
rabbi gluckowsky did NOT daven downstairs on Shavous, he davened in the Rebbe's room, therefore did not hear or see Mochkin.
Yeah Sure,
I am sure that Rabbi Glukowsky didn't know a thing about what's happening in 770, while the entire world was talking about it.
That's why he spoke about Sholom by the main Farbrengen in 770 (not at Yudel's farbrengen).
heshy,
Both Rabbi Marlow a"h & Rabbi Osdoba shlit"a allowed people to take tzedoka from Fisher, when they were asked.
Everyone knows that Toras Emes in Israel asked the Badatz in CH and were told that they are not permitted to take this treif money.
Toras Emes had the mesiras nefesh to give up about $10,000 a year from Fisher for this reason.
Anonymous said...
heshy,
Both Rabbi Marlow a"h & Rabbi Osdoba shlit"a allowed people to take tzedoka from Fisher, when they were asked.
Brook would even threaten everyone (kedarkoy bakodesh) whoever came to fundrais in America, that if they will take Money from Fisher, he personally will make sure that no one will give such a Mosod any money.
Anonymous said...
heshy,
Both Rabbi Marlow a"h & Rabbi Osdoba shlit"a allowed people to take tzedoka from Fisher, when they were asked.
All the big machers in ch were at the dinner. Must say they al agree with boymenlgreen, rubashkin and their people!
corruptions' side,
How many Yidden once worshiped the Egel Hazahav? Is this a popularity contest? If their were a lot of people in favor of the Egel Hazohov, should we all follow them?
Money Talks, some people, but not all people worship money (and kovod).
But not CH.
The Rebbe said that CH is a place where Tzedek Veyosher will rule and not Money (or those who worship money).
יוסקע
תעלה לבימה בשבת ותבקש מחילה על הבזיון שגרמת
Boymelgreen was honored by BAIS RIVKA THIS YEAR and CENTRAL LUBAVITCH 1414 DINNER 5 YEAS AGO
"Shmuel said... It's perfectly understandable that... "Shmuel said...
It's perfectly understandable that OT honored someone (Boimelgreen) who insults Rabbi Schwei because they did it for the Money. If OT is offered a lot of money by anyone, it's a Nisayon"
Everyone knows that Boymelgreens "donations" usually comes with strings attached, conditions that he gets what he wants out of it. Like his condition that he gets Getzl's Shull in exchange for supporting L.Y. etc
I wonder what condition he made with OT?
In order for anyone to decide which Rav is greater, you would have to be a bigger Lamdan than both Rabbonim and then "test" them both Kaviyochol.
Unless someone thinks he is himself, a greater Rav than both Rabbonim, (which he obviously isn't) he shouldn't be mixing in!
Obviously that isn't the point.
What is the point is that we do actually have two different Rabbonim with two different opinions and the right thing for all of us to do, is to respect them both equally to treat them both equally and non of us should take sides.
Each one of the Rabbonim says that HE knows the Halacha "better", so who are WE to decide?
We have to go Lechumra - SHEV V'AL TAASEH - leave it up to the Rabbonim to work out their differences, themselves, and we should all stay home, keep out of it and not mix in and not take sides.
i.e. The exact opposite of what Rubashkin is trying to do to the entire community (Rubashkin is trying to Shlep all of us right into the Machlokes)!
Anonymous said...
To Zev, I think that HORAV OZDOBA knows HALOCHO better then Zev ,period
To all of you who says you can't give an aliyah to Segal because of he is in a Siruv by Rabbi Schwei and Beis Din.
Let me ask you. if you are a regular guy, not in this machlokos and Rabbi Schwei said not to give the Mesurav Segal, an Aliya and Rabbi Osdoba says to give him an Aliya, what do u do?
If they wouldn't give him they wouldn't listen to Rabbi Osdoba which is also "taking sides"!
I'm sure all u guys talk with so much respect for all the Rabbonim I'm sure u agree!
Anyway I think they made a fair deal of a compromise.
They gave the Segal and Zirkind Aliyos but they also gave Rabbi Schwei Aseres Hadibros.
U have to understand they had to compromise.
btw
Just remember that whenever u speak of Rabbi Schwei there is another Rov Rabbi Osdoba who says the other way so what do we do?
This is not my opinion but the fact.
I'm not into all this machlokos just a hard working guy in the community u just have to be fair to everyone.
Fact,
You are right that the differences of the Rabbonim create a dilemma but you are wrong in saying that the Gebaim handled it the right way "fairly" by making a "compromise".
This simply is NOT the "fact".
You are trying to make it sound like they gave Rabbi Schvei Aseres Hadibros, like it was a "Big Favor" to compensate for going against him, giving the fake Rabbonim and Mesurav Ledin an Aliya.
That's not true.
Rabbi Schvei got the Aliya because it was simply HIS TURN, according to the Rotation System which the gaboim have to alternate, the most Prominent Aliyos, once to one rav and then Alternate next time to the other Rav.
Rabbi Schvei got Aseres Hadibros, because he deserved it in turn and the Gaboim had no choice about it. They had to give it to Rabbi Schvei regardless if Segal and Zirkind existed or not.
You do have a good point though, what should the Gaboim do if One Rav says you should give an Aliya and the Other say you should not.
Before we get to the answer, let's first establish the "FACT" as you call it, that Lush definitely was NOT FAIR by his choice of action of listening to one Rav AGAINST the Other.
What to do?
The same as what The gabaim did Rosh Hashana, when One Rav said that someone should Daven for the Amud and the Other said the opposite.
What did the Gabaim do?
They didn't send ANYONE to the Amud! SHEV V'ALL TAASEH!!!
Finally one person went to the Amud by himself, without being sent by the gaboim, suffice it to say that "he" will never do that again.
sholom how can you say "never",
techiyas hameysim is one of the 13 ikray haemuna!!!
why when Rabbi Marlow a"h was alive, he was the only Rav that recieved all the choshuve aliyos? There was no alternation back then, why now?
why is Rabbi ozdaba sitting with avrohom shemtov, and shake his hand?
just asking.
Anonymous,
You didn't know that Boimelgreen is a totally aligned with the Left?
What you're asking is not really a question.
The only real question is, why wasn't Fisher at the head table?
Anonymous said...
why is Rabbi ozdaba sitting with avrohom shemtov, and shake his hand?
just asking.
Anonymous said...
why when Rabbi Marlow a"h was alive, he was the only Rav that received all the choshuve aliyos? There was no alternation back then, why now?
Answer:
As far as aseres hadibros goes that is untrue, they did have a rotation system and they notified Rabbi Ozdoba in advance since he hardly ever davened in 770.
And since on Yomim noiroim he was not interested in davening in the crowded 770 and preferred to remain either in Hadar hatora or usually Chevra Shas, there was no reason to offer him Maftir Yona or any other kibud.
However after Rabbi Marlow passed away , Rabbi Ozdoba RELUCTANTLY agreed to start davening in 770 more often.
Rabbi Shwei has always been davening on Shabbos and Yom tov in 770 and davens there the whole Tishrei , therefore its only fair that he should share equally in all the kibudim.
לאש...
אני זוכר אותך מהישיבה תמיד היית בעל מחלוקת... וכעת אתה הורס את שכונת המלך
חזור בך
"Rabbi Shwei has always been davening on Shabbos a... "Rabbi Shwei has always been davening on Shabbos and Yom tov in 770 and davens there the whole Tishrei , therefore its only fair that he should share equally in all the kibudim."
That is not true. Rabbi Schwey used to daven at 768 Montgomery and in Oholei Torah on Troy Avenue.
Anonymous said...
That is not true. Rabbi Schwey used to daven at 768 Montgomery and in Oholei Torah on Troy Avenue.
That was before he became a rov.
We are discussing his position as Rov.
Rabbi Ozdoba, even as a Rov davened elsewhere during the life time of Rabbi Marlow whereas Rabbi Shwei immediately started to daven in 770.
I'm not criticizing anyones decision to daven wherever they choose. That is their choice, I'm only stating it as a matter of fact.
Even more so, before Rabbi Shwei became a Rov , he had a regular arrangement to go visit with family in Argentina and daven by the Omud on Rosh Hashono and Yom Kipur.
As a Rov he gave that up to be in 770 on Tishrei. He is therefore entitled to equal kibudim.
Rabbi Losh is a devoted Gabai who spends time and efforts to keep 770 nice.
He has full rights to give any Kibud to whoever he wants with the assistance of the other Gabaioyim.
I am sure he consults with 1 of the Rabbonim, the one which he is ok with.
Reb Carroll St.
Reb Carroll St. said...
I am sure he consults with 1 of the Rabbonim, the one which he is ok with.
Dear Carrol St:
No one doubts that Lush consults ONE Rov, Rabbi Osdoba, but this is precisely the entire problem.
Lush thinks that we have ONE Rov.
But we don't have ONE Rov.
We have TWO Rabbonim!
Uch Un Vei if your only defense is that someone is "Tzadik" because he only ate ONE Chazer Sandwich but he is "Tzadik" because he didn't eat BOTH Chazer Sandwiches.
Lush is spitting in the face of ONE of the two Rabbonim, it doesn't make him any more of a "Tzadik" because he didn't spit at BOTH of them but rather "he only spat at ONE of them"!
zalman lipsker is a very nice guy and cares for the shul, but he has a big opinion.
he is a huge meshichist fighting krisnky if not for zalman they wouldnt be in court and the entire 770 shull would be one big dead "monument", if it was up to krinsky chas vsholom
zalman haas guts. i remember him years ago as he was fighting yoel kahn even in yoels own party
i agree he whould be voted in by next elections since he is very good for the shul not like the other gaboim, who only side with one rav against the other rav
About Fisher's tzedaka:
Some are quoting the Rebbe and the Rabbonim as saying "no" to his money.
Regardless, I look at it this way:
If he gives tzedaka with no strings
attached, then, why not, it's true
tzedaka. If he uses "tzedaka" to
justify wrongdoing, that's not tzedaka. There's another term for it - SHOCHAD (Bribery)!
Dear Friend:
Fishers money is the same as Robin Hoods "Tzedaka".
Would you say the same to Robin Hood, if he offered you money for "Tzedaka".
Would you then also say to Robin Hood, "it's real Tzedaka, as long as no strings are attached"?
Fishers money was stolen from the entire community. Some of it was from several individual investors and the rest was given to him by the Government on behalf of the entire ch community and not in order to "throw a bone" (of "tzedaka") to the community, and for him to keep 99.99% of the cash for himself, to enrich his personal pocket.
Rubashkin, Boimelgreen and company, today, is the Fisher of Yesterday, not only metaphorically speaking but they are actually very closely connected, working in concert - "partners in crime".
יתכן מאוד שהנני כותב דברים שאחרים כתבו ראשית כל אינני מכיר לאש באופן אישי כמי שגר בשכונה הי' ניכר כאיש ישר
אבל גם בלי כל הכרות עמו דבר ברור אצלי שיש הרבה אנשים שראויים לתואר בעל מחלוקת לפניו
אבל בנוגע לעצם הענין קל מאוד לומר שב ואל תעשה כשיש ב' רבנים א' אומר תעשה ואחר אומר אל תעשה כל פעולה שתעשה היא התערבות
ומה שכתבו שהי' איזה סיפור עם חזן אינני יודע בדיוק מה קרה שם אבל כמדומני נושא של עליות זה יותר מסובך
אז הגבאי בדילמה מה לעשות מה שהוא עשה הייתי גם אני הקטן עושה
Here "shev ve'al taase," not to take a stand at all, was appropriate.
In the end, Losh's decision, with or without the input of the other gaboyim was wrong.
i heard that krinsky and company decide to join congergation lubavitch as members and have all the shluchim join as members. and then demand the right to vote and the plan is they will elect their own gaboyim and take over the shul from within
an alter said...
i heard that krinsky and company decide to join congregation lubavitch as members and have all the shluchim join as members
HA HA HA
Very funny!
Will Yudel also say Yechi, as long as he thinks it will get him "the benkel" ?
When we were fighting Barry in court, Krinsky was considering to make a Pshara (compromise deal) with Barry.
When the Rebbe said it was out of the question, the Rebbe explained it as follows:
"Men Meint Duch Dem Benkel!!!"
Today we see the same thing, history repeats it's self.
This isn't a fight over "a plaque" not a fight over "a rock", rather "Krinsky means the Benkel"
One last thing, Alter,
Krinsky has no problem spending $200,000 which yidden gave at Kol Nidery, to take the Shull to court, while masquerading that he represents 2,000 shluchim who don't respect him per say but merely have Yiras Haretzuah, afraid of his terror that he will fire them as being not "the Rebbe's Shluchim", but "Krinskies Shluchim".
Bottom Line:
Remember that Drizin has a lot more money than Krinsky and he can get 100,000 Meshichisten who come for Tishrey to be 'members of the shull', to offset the artificial imbalance created by Krinskies 2,000 Shluchim, whom Krinsky holds "Hostage", under his iron fist.
to zalman
first of all just imagint the amount of money the shul would get in such a vote there would be 4,000 people becoming members @ $100.00 or $180.00 fpr membership that could mean close to 400,000.00 or ,ore for the shul . now that would be great at least the lawyers wont get the money 77o the shul would
not a bad i dea i think
To Alter,
At last we finaly agree on something!
Go for it!
Tel Yudel, that I like his idea and give him my full blessing.
Zalman
an alter said...
to zalman
first of all just imagint the amount of money the shul would get in such a vote there would be 4,000 people becoming members @ $100.00 or $180.00 fpr membership that could mean close to 400,000.00 or ,ore for the shul . now that would be great at least the lawyers wont get the money 77o the shul would
not a bad i dea i think
The 770 Congregation Lubavitch, Inc. bylaws require that all voting members must regularly daven and contribute to the incorporated shul.
Therefore, not only can those who daven at neighborhood shuls (the majority of the 25 plus shuls of the Netzigim) NOT vote, but certainly not those who live outside Crown Heights.
Most people fail to understand, or even know, that Congregation Lubavitch, Inc. was incorporated after Gimmel Tammuz as a NEIGHBORHOOD shul, not as a shul for all Anash.
Maybe a technicality, but certainly something to consider
The 770 Congregation Lubavitch, Inc. bylaws require that all voting members must regularly daven and contribute to the incorporated shul.
Therefore, not only can those who daven at neighborhood shuls (the majority of the 25 plus shuls of the Netzigim) NOT vote, but certainly not those who live outside Crown Heights.
Most people fail to understand, or even know, that Congregation Lubavitch, Inc. was incorporated after Gimmel Tammuz as a NEIGHBORHOOD shul, not as a shul for all Anash.
Maybe a technicality, but certainly something to consider
Reb Carrol St.
I have a small question I would like the Olem to Answer and I really ask for the truth
Does Rabbi Schwei Have Smicha and Dayonis as the Rebbe Asked for
When Rabbi Osdoba was elected he didn't have Yodin Yodin.
Rabbi Osdoba first got Yodin Yodin after he became Rov (Presumably because there was a Tzetel about that from The Rebbe to Zirkind, who was the head of the Netzigim who arranged for the Elections of the Rabbonim).
However Rabbi Schwei has Smicha, Yodin Yodin, from FORTY YEARS AGO, from the previous generation Gedoley Harabonim, long before he was ever elected.
Anonymous said...
Does Rabbi Schwei Have Smicha and Dayonis as the Rebbe Asked for
to zalman
maybe we could agree onthe solution to all these issues in kan tzivah.. as i said this morning there one person and only one person that can solve and resolve this whole matter.
no not a judge and not a zabla (even though i am not against one in principle but a zabla involve 3 people) i mean only one and that is horav heller. he is the third (or we can call first or second chas veshalom to take away from his kavoid) rov that would be mashlim the beis din kovuah in crown height lechol hadeois, and then we can put him as the deciding vote between the 2 and on each issue he can decide who he feels is correct and majority will rule and hope fully all will abide by his decision. i know i will
nu if you agree maybe we can put some pressure on horav heller to at least get involved in (at least
)just this issue. my feeling is he would most probbably need to make some sort of matir neder. but nu that can be done.
Alter,
I like your idea.
Unfortunately, however Rabbi Heller doesn't want to get involved and I don't think anyone is going to change his mind.
Believe me, I know, that Rabbi Osdoba's followers put enormous pressure on Rabbi Heller, already, to join their team.
It got even worse, when "the Lefty people", who decided it was in their interest "buy themselves a Beis Din" which can "kasher the sheretz", (The Menude Fisher, The Mesurev Shemtov and the Mesurev Krinsky, as you can see in the O.T. Photos) and to "get them 770" under their control...
and so, they decided to Vote, in Rubashkin's election, for the first time in their life.
They too pressured Rabbi Heller, but Rabbi Heller refused to buckle in spite of all the super intense pressure.
I disagree with what you say, "to pressure Rabbi Heller". I think it's wrong to ever pressure any Rov. Each Rov should be able to make up his own mind, whatever he feels is right and we the community, have no right to "force" or "pressure" any Rov to do anything.
Zalman,
Regarding the issue of not pressuring any rov, your absolutely right!
I would just like to ad to what you were saying, that this is exactly the entire problem which we all have with Rubashkin:
Rubashkin believes in "Arm Twisting, the Rov" to get what he wants, which is very, very wrong, even if Rubashkin thinks it can achieve, "peace" it is a Chutzpah Norahh, to force any Rov to do anything, even if you imagine that it will bring you imaginary or even real "sholom".
That includes, that it's absolutely wrong to force any Rov to make "elections", when any one Rov, feels that it's wrong, for whatever his reason may be.
We have had a Machlokes between the Rabbonim before Rubashkin's days but Rubashkin made the Machlokes 1,000 worse because he thought he can "FORCE his version of PEACE" against the will of the Rabbonim.
Alter,
Your right that Rabbi Heller should be the 3d Rov to be Machria by joining the Badataz or even if he doesn't want to join the Badatz, he can at least say what is right and what is wrong, to settle the Major issues between the Rabbonim.
Alter, I have a little surprise for you!
Rabbi Heller, already did exactly that!!!
Rabbi Heller tried to be neutral but he already showed us, which Rav he thinks is right, by Rabbi Hellers own actions which speaks louder than his words.
Rabbi Heller DIDN'T VOTE!!!!!!!
Rabbi Osdoba said everyone should vote and yet Rabbi Heller DID NOT Vote, in spite of very extreme pressure from Rubashkin, to try to force Rabbi Heller to Vote. Yet Rabbi Heller refused to Vote himself, in direct defiance of Rabbi Osdoba's wishes
Rabbi Heller can "say diplomatically", to all those who ask him which Rav to follow, to say to them "do what you think is right"
But that he says, only because "he doesn't want to get involved"
But wouldn't you love to know what Rabbi Heller really thinks PRIVATELY, which Rav does Rabbi Heller HIMSELF, follow, in his own personal life.
Rabbi Heller, didn't Vote, bepoal mamash, against the wishes of Rabbi Osdoba and in accordance with the wishes of Rabbi Schwei.
So now he IS involved and everyone knows which side he's on!
Rabbbi Heller did vote in all other prior elections except this one.
Rabbi Heller never wanted to take sides, but Rabbi Heller can thank Rubashkin for this because it was Rubashkins Elections which FORCED Rabbi Heller (and everyone else in CH) into this most uncomfortable position to have to chose one Rav against the Other, all because of Rubashkins Elections which made the Machlokes 1,000 worse than it ever was.
Dear Partners in crime:
If what you say is true, I agree
with you 100 percent. Well put.
The problem is, they have not
been found guilty of any crime
yet. Don't we wait until then?
Let the court proceedings
go through, unless the
defendants comply with
Beis Din orders. Then, what
you said will be 100 percent valid.
Dear Friend,
Your "Americanized" beliefs are not entirely accurate because what you say only applies, "in a court of law" but not on the street and not in people minds and not in the court of public opinion.
O.J. Simpson wasn't found Guilt in any "court of Law". Yet I challenge you to find me one fool who thinks OJ is really "innocent".
Even if you can find "one such fool", in most peoples minds, their is no doubt.
OJ is not an unusual example:
Every day, people are charged with crimes.
The DA or Cops who are doing the "charging" of the criminal case, are doing so, as paid government workers, and the reason they prosecute is NOT because they presume the criminal to be innocent.
The prosecutor ALWAYS feels 100% certain before, during and after the trial, that the defendant is guilty and regardless of what the outcome of the trial may be.
The general public is free to think as they wish and free to speak as they wish.
The only one who is "bound" by this dogma is the court systems. In a court of law and only in a court of law, is a person presumed innocent until proven guilty".
I hear that Rubashkin out of desperation has been sending messages with threats to have 2 askonim locked up. It shows that hes not just desperate but stupid too. First of all those 2 askonim are innocent parties who are not connected at all with his problems in the Vaad hakohol or his pending court case. Secondly, he should know that people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones and what goes around comes around. If he trys that route, most likely he himself will get locked up, as the rap sheet on him is too long to list. Moshe, quit while your ahead!
to rabbi hellers position
not voting doesnt necesarlliy mean he takes one side over the other.
but on a different note to "force" a rov to do someting might not be the correct term but "loi samoid al dam reyacha" should also apply. if you went to a ruv to ask a shaiyloh can he say i dont want to pasken ?
and if you want to say who rabbi heller hold like find out about the filtered water what he did with that issue
the bottom line is we need him. and maybe the whole community should sign a petition begging him to help us get out of this mess since it is in his beyechoiles to do.
the bottom line is we have a way to make peace why cant it be done. the rebbe wanted it. we need it.
sometimes there is a machloikes and unfortunantly there is no way out. as you said in your previous statement regarding husband and wife. but here we can have a peace and a solution. let the beis din of rabbi schwei rabbi osdoba and rabbi heller . speak with one voice. acharei rabim ...
Dear Webmaster,
Your audio of the Machoah, talking about Lush, sounds like someone who is very upset and very outraged.
Who is the guy?
הטייפ היא של מנחם בלוי והנוזליין שלו
בלי קשר למה שאמר מותר לשאול כמה יהודים קירב הנוזליין ללויבאוויטש וכמה ריחק
לפי דעתי האישית ושל הרבה שדיברתי אתם כל השנים הנוזליין הי' יצא שכרו בהפסידו וד"ל
Regarding the Audio Voice Protest:
The audio quality, sounds like it was recorded off the Telephone Line.
It's the infamous distinct voice of Rabbi Menachem Blau from the Crown Heights Newsline 212-461-8877.
Without knowing who you are, I can tell from what you write that you are a very typical "Lefty".
The only thing Lefty's think about all day, is the opposite of "Al Yevosh Mipney Bney Odom, Hamailigim" and "Mah Yomru Habriyos".
Had you been, real Lubavitcher, Harouy Lishmoy, (instead of a Lefty), then you would know and would have learned from the Rebbe himself, that when the Rebbe chose to be Moche against Satmar and against Shach and against Barry and against Fisher and against Mihu Yehudy and for Shleimus Haartez and against all the Frum Political Parties in Israel and the USA, even against the Agude and even Ger...
The Rebbe taught us, that when you have to be Moche you are Moche!
The Rebbe taught us that "the Lefty's" are wrong for putting Politics before Torah and always being preoccupied with "Mah Yomru Habriyos" instead of being a True Chossid and being Moche as the Rebbe taught us, even if it will hurt you in your Kovod Hamedume or a few $ in your pocket -
It's the exact opposite of the Entire Yesod, of the entire shita of everyone in the Left, who do nothing except be "apologetic" for the Rebbe, whom they are ASHAMED off because in their mind, (because of their Lack of emunah in the Rebbe) "The Rebbe promised the world moshiach, and has yet to "deliver" on that Promise"!
Therefore because of this inferiority complex of the Left, every time the subject of Moshiach comes up publicly, they don't know where to "bury their head in shame" because their Lack of adequate Emunah in the Rebbe, makes them feel like "Bamachte".
"Mah Yomru Habriyos", they know is a "dirty word" so they dress it in a "Zeidene Zupetze", masquerading as a "paranoid schizophrenic fear", of: "Men Iz Duch Merachek Yidden" Kaviyochol.
The Rebbe was not Merachek any Yidden and neither are all those who follow the Rebbe's ways to be Moche, wherever and whenever, it's warranted.
The only one who really IS Merachek Yidden, is "the Left", themselves, because people look at them and see that they are plain and simple, Poshut LIER'S, and Hypocrites, trying to fool the world, about the truth, regarding what all Lubavitchers really believe about Moshiach.
The Cat is out of the bag! It's too late for them now. By their desperate efforts to pretend as though, they themselves don't believe that the Rebbe is really Moshiach, the entire world knows that they are lying, anyway, but now they have shown themselves, to the entire world, to be cowards, too ashamed to admit what all Lubavitchers truly believe.
It's precisely this Shita of the Left, to LIE about Moshiach and to be apologetic for the Rebbe's very Extrema Meshichist Shita and Program, by doing this, Davka THEY are being Merachek Yidden, who see right through, their Lies and Hypocrisy.
Anonymous said...
בלי קשר למה שאמר מותר לשאול כמה יהודים קירב הנוזליין ללויבאוויטש וכמה ריחק
לפי דעתי האישית ושל הרבה שדיברתי אתם כל השנים הנוזליין הי' יצא שכרו בהפסידו וד"ל
מה פרצת עליך פרץ
סליחה אדוני טעית בהבחנך אודותי
1) ב"ה עשיתי מה שעשיתי בפרסום עניני משיח {לא בזהות המשיח שמעולם
2)לא נצטווינו בפרסום זהות המשיח}
הדגשתי שמה שכתבתי הוא בלי קשר למה שהוא אמר
וגם אם אתה אוחז שצריכים למחות לאו דוקא שצריכים לעשות את זה במקום שאנשים שלא מחב"ד ידעו כל השמוץ שקורה
הבאתם הקסט ואמרתי דעתי על הנאוזליין שכל השנים הרבה לפני ג/ תמוז הביא דברים על הנאוזליין באופן שלא הביא כבוד לליובאוויטש (מי דיבר על משיח)??
הביא פלוטיקא שלא הי' צריך וכדומה ואנשים שלא מחב"ד צלצלו רק לצחוק עחינו
יש הבדל גדול בין להביא דברי הרבי בלי להתבייש בין סתם לבייש את עצמינו
רציתי להדגיש ולהבהיר שאין בדברי שום דבר נגד מנהל הנוזליין ח"ו וח"ו הנני מכירו רבות בשנים והוא איש ישר ורציני ורוצה באמת להפיץ מעיינות חוצה רק כשמגיעים להחוצה מוכרח משנה זהירות וכל דבר ומילה צריכים לישב עליהם שבעה נקיים
מה פרצת עליך פרץ
סליחה אדוני טעית בהבחנך אודותי
To Partners in crime:
Okay. If someone feels this or
that person is guilty, regardless
of Mishpat ruling, there is not
much anyone can do about expression
of thought.
However, unlike O.J., where justice
was trashed because of a "jury"
consisting of biased filth(who
were determined, l'chatchilah, to
exonerate him no matter how obviously guilty he was), suppose
a legitimate Bais Din rules that
Fisher and/or Rubashkin did nothing
wrong. Will you accept or reject it? After all, it is a Bais Din.
Doesn't the Torah command us to
accept their ruling, whether we
like it or not? Okay, so you may go
to the "highest" Bais Din, because
you feel the other Bais Din erred.
And if they also rule the same,
what then?
To tell you the truth, If I thought
a Bais Din was unfair to me, I might get upset and refer to them
as a "Bais SIN", CH"V. But does that make me right?
Dear Friend,
This is the entire problem with both Fisher and Rubashkin, that they both refuse to got to a Fair, unbiased Beis Din of Zabla.
Only Criminals are afraid of Justice. When someone knows they are in the right, they come RUNNING and look forward to their day in Beis Din or in Court where they can exonerate themselves and show the world their innocents.
But Criminals,who know themselves, very well, that they are completely guilty, they never want to go to any unbiased Zabla Beis Din, rather they always have to DRAGGED into court.
That's why the Rabbonim, then, told us to take Fisher to court and that's why the Rabbonim, now, told us to take Rubashkin to court.
Again, about accepting Tzedakah
from R. Fisher or Rubashkin, some
have quoted the Rabbanon as saying
it's okay. If so, case closed. In
fact, I know, personally, that when
one of the Rabbanan was asked about
renting, he said, "Rent? Yes, you
can rent." So, why not tzedaka?
Look, if the money reverts to its
rightful owner, I would think THEY
would get credit for that tzedaka.
Now, get this:
Suppose someone needs tzedaka and feels compelled to go to Fisher or
Rubashkin, because he exhausted
all the legitimate sources for that, what do we tell him?
"Sorry, you will have to do with
less food for your family...,
will have to send your child to
public school..., move your
family into a dump, etc.?"
To Rubashkin is like Fisher:
I agree with you 100 percent.
In my previous comments, I always
maintained that all parties to
this, including Fisher and Rubashkin, should go to a neutral,
unbiased Bais Din, outside Lubavitch. That way, you will
have the best possibility of it
being most impartial. If at all possible, which is why I recommend
out of Lubavitch, the judges should
never have heard of the individuals
or parties to the case, although
that may be difficult with Rubashkin's famous meat company.
Dear Friend,
Just because "someone said" they had permission, doesn't mean it's true. In fact it is NOT true.
The Badatz NEVER gave a Heter to anyone, ever take Fisher's Tzedaka which is actually Schochad in this case.
Your right that the Badatz permitted people to rent from Fisher and hundreds of Anash rented then and now from Fisher.
The difference between taking his so called "Tzedaka" as compared to renting his apartment is a difference of Day to Night.
When someone rents an apt. from Fisher, or Rubashkin, neither the landlord nor the Tennant are doing each other any favors and so neither one owes the other any favors in return.
It's strictly business. Fisher could rent to anyone else instead and the renter can rent from a different landlord just as easily.
When someone gets 'free money', so called "Tzedaka" (actually Schochad) from Fisher or Rubashkin, even if their is no verbal "strings attached" it is self understood that their is no way in the world, that they could possibly receive any of that money if they were to choose to follow the Badataz's Psak Din that Fisher is in Cherem.
For example:
The Psak din which says that Fisher is in Cherem, specifically calls for literally SPITTING, Bepoal Mamash, (as many have done in CH) whenever someone finds himself in the immediate presence of Fisher. This is what Torah demands that we do to Fisher TODAY (The Cherem is still in full force!).
Now just try to imagine someone spitting at Fisher as required by Torah, can you now picture Fisher giving this fellow a $10,000 Tzedaka Check the next day?
Or the opposite:
Suppose Yesterday, Fisher mailed someone a $10,000 check, "with no (verbal) strings attached". The next day, this same person fins himself in the immediate presence of Fisher, do you think there is a any chance in a million, that the Recipient of Fishers $10,000 (so called Tzedaka) is going to actually Spit at him (or do anything even million times less severe than spitting) against Fisher, as required by Torah and Halacha?
But Fisher didn't make any verbal "strings attached" condition, to his $10,000 check, you ask?
Do you really think Fisher has to verbalize his condition in so many words, for everyone to understand what is implied?
We are dealing specifically, not just with a "nobody" but with a (bad) prominent public figure, someone who everyone knows is an Outcast, known as "the Menude" or "the Mesurav", by Beis Din and he obviously wants to "wash his dirty hands clean" and wants to be considered "Mr Nice Guy" or "Mr Tzedaka Giver" instead of being known as "The Menude Fisher" or "the Mesurav Rubashkin".
When something is so obvious it need not be spelled.
The same is true, when Lush gave the Aliyah to Segal. It is self evident that it wasn't "just an aliya" but who's deliberate intent was to try and "Kosher" the Mesurav Segal. No one except someone completely sold out to that partisan side, would even dream of respecting such a Mesurev.
The same is True when Lush gave gave the Aliya to Zirkind. It was not any "innocent aliya" and he didn't have to verbally announce why he gave Zirkind the Aliya.
Everyone knows why Lush did it, specifically in order to Spit in the Face of Rabbi Schwei, by pretending that Zirkind is some kind of a new "elected" Rabbi in the community, which he is not.
Dear Friend,
You're right about using an unbiased Beis Din, but merely because it's "Outside Lubavitch" doesn't guarantee that it's unbiased.
The Shulchan Aruch says that the way to go is using Zabla.
Zabla is a critical element in insuring i's unbiased.
If, Dear Friend wants to ad to that that the Zabla be chosen form people who are not Lubavitchers or people not from CH, I don't think anyone would mind choosing "a Zabla from a pool of potential Rabbonim, from the outside" but it absolutely must be ZABLA, no matter which way you do it.
Dear Friend said...
I always
maintained that all parties to
this, including Fisher and Rubashkin, should go to a neutral,
unbiased Beis Din, outside Lubavitch.
I am sorry to say, I think this site is bias. Why are you not saying any news about the "Sperlin escape".
If you have any integrity, you would say it all - or say nothing.
You have already started saying it all...
Let's get it all clear once and for all. When Rubashkin and Segal where called by Rabbi Schwei to a Din Torah by ZABLA, Rabbi Osdoba explicitly told them and wrote it in his letter that there was no reason to go to a din torah.
I believe that Rabbi Osdoba has a say what goes on in the Beis Din.
Anonymous,
We all have the greatest respect for the Mara Deasra Rabbi Osdoba and any opinions which he has about people not getting an impartial trial, in a Zabla Beis din or in Court.
Rabbi Osdoba is certainly entitled to his holly opinion, I am sure, it's only leshem shomayim, and we all respect it greatly.
I must say, though that I don't think that it's Kovod Harabonim, to publicize this the way you did in your comment because although I am sure that Rabbi Osdoba is right, but it's not B'Kovodik to publicize this because everyone almost expected Rabbi Osdoba to Pasken this way, since Rabbi Osdoba is himself the Target of a Din Torah, by his own fellow Mara Deasra, against him too, and it's all about the very exact, identical, same issue.
So certainly if Rabbi Osdoba is being called to a Din Torah, himself to face charges against him by his fellow Mara Deasra, and Rabbi Osdoba's position is, that he himself, should not to go to a Zabla Beis din about the charges against himslef....
Now, does any reasonable person, honestly expect, Rabbi Osdoba to allow Rubashkin and Segal to go to a Din Torah, where if Segal and Ruabshkin are "found GUILTY" it would directly implicate Rabbi Osdoba who got them involved in all this to begin with????????!!!!!!
When you say, that their is nothing wrong with them not going to a Din Torah, because they themselves, who are being charged with Violations of Halacha and Halachic Crimes, they themselves "don't see any need" and aren't looking forward to being judged by an impartial Zabla Beis Din....
Your reasoning is making a Mockery mot only of this Beis Din but of all Rabbonus in the entire world.
Again, each Rav is entitled to his own opinion and we the community should respect them both, equally al achas kama vkama, that certainly, no one should belittle or chas vsholom or make fun, of either Rav.
However when you use ridiculous reasons to justify why Rubashkin, Segal and why Rabbi Osdoba himself, need not appear to a Din Torah on charges against them, you are making fun Chas v'Sholom, of all Rabbonim and Rabbonus in the entire world.
Do you (or any reasonable sensible person) feel that Rabbi Osdoba himself or his workers (i.e. his own, Rabbonim Helpers) whom he, himself Chose and hired, (Al Apo V'Al Chamoso, of his Fellow Mara Deasra,) Davka, "ONLY THEY" should preside of his own Din Torah against HIMSELF????
Let's be perfectly truthful about this:
The issues Rubashkin and Segal are being called to a Zabla about, are 100% directly implicating the very same Din Torah of charges against Rabbi Osdoba himself.
Therefore, anyone who says that Rabbi Osdoba should preside of the Din Torah against Segal, it is identical to him saying that Rabbi Osdoba should preside over the Din Torah against Rabbi Osdoba himself.
Anonymous said...
Rabbi Osdoba explicitly told them and wrote it in his letter that there was no reason to go to a din Torah.
In other words there is little point in citing the Rav's opinions about anything from the Past because in the past they have proven to be subject to change.
It can't be!
Rabbi Osdoba would never shake hands with Shemtov.
It's fake picture!
Avreml,
What are you talking about?
I was their and I had seen it myself.
Your comment reminds me of Zirkind.
When Zirkind had seen Rabbi Osdoba's signature, canceling the elections he wasn't even ashamed of himself to publicly proclaimed Rabbi Osdoba's real signature to be a FORGERY.
It was very nice of OT, to give Rabbi Osdoba, the most Choshuve seat at the head table i.e. Right Next to Shem Tov mamash.
k'ish echod b'lev echod............
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