New Letter - 23 Sivan - Mara Deasra, Horav Schwei Shelita says: Not only is it permissible but an OBLIGATION to take Rubashkin to Court
posted by DaasHakohol @ Thursday, June 22, 2006
27 comments
The Opinion of the People is the Opinion of G-d.
The Voice of the People is like the Voice of G-d. - The Rebbe Rashab
Thursday, June 22, 2006
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27 Comments:
How come Rabbi Schwei's "psak" contains no sources?
This letter is very well written and unlike the other letters that oppose the action, and straight to the point.
The other letters from others, that oppose the civil lawsuit misquote sources and lie about the facts. Rabbi Shwei is also honest and states clearly that this case belongs by a zablo , since no Rov is allowed to sit on a Din Tora that concerns himself. This is much stronger than just being nogeia bedovor and saying it's al "ME", "ME" and "ME".
Anyway, we can see from Rabbi Shweis letter that he has a very Astonishing Seyata Dishmaya!
It's Practically a Baal Shemske Maaseh!
Since his letter was written before the violent attack assault against Best occurred, which in a case of violence all agree that the only way, is to bring a criminal action. This includes Rabbi Ozdobas opinion, before he became aware that the question concerns Moshe Rubashkin.
Now that Moshe has been established as an ODOM ALIM (a person who is violent and does not respect Rabonim), it is permitted for any person to take him to court for any reason and you do not need to summon him to a Din Tora first or get a heter from a Rov. It does not even need to be a related case.
Its almost like the letter was written Al Pi Ruach Hakodesh!
Just saw the story of Rubashkin
allegedly assaulting Best.
If true, then, nebach, RUBASHKIN
IS A MENTAL CASE! The procedures against him should change and proceed according the halachos pertaining to a shoteh!
Fort Dix is not the place for him. Try BELLVIEW!
When is the court session going to happen?
Sources were already quoted in the original Psak Din which was by a Beis Din of THREE Rabbonim, including by Rabbi Mangel, whom Rabbi Marlow, AND Rabbi Osdoba, always used as the Third Rav.
We should boycott all Rubashkin meat products.
Buy David Eliet and Rabbi Feigelshtock's Meat, at the Shuk!
Is there a video of Moishy's "attack?" If so, post it.
If Moishy wants to go back and repeat his trips to solitary and speculate on why the AIBISHTER IS DOING THIS TO HIM, that's his (and his family's) problem.
You should stick to the issues and the crimes.
And, by the way, aren't Plotzky and Harvey the REAL co-conspiritors?
They are the enablers, the worst kind of people to be around an unstable person, like Rubashkin.
There is a Video which is extremely incriminating of Rubashkin.
If it's posted it's the next closest thing to handing it over to the DA.
Contrary to what Rubashkin's people say, No one wants to see Rubashkin go to Jail. And no one is putting Rubashkin in Jail.
Rubashkin is PUTTING HIMSELF in Jail, by refusing to step down from his relentless, illegal activity in the CHJCC.
As much as we try to keep Rubashkin out of Jail, Rubashkin is trying his hardest to do everything he can (by not resigning) to go back to Jail as a result of his, many, many, Parole Violations.
Farbrendt, you are right that If Rubashkin wants to Shlep Himself into Jail that it's HIS PROBLEM.
But the real problem is that Rubashkin is so reckless, and ruthless that he is implicating and "helping along" in this big mess, his Rabbi, Segal, and City Officials who are being forced to try and cover up for this convicted felon.
In the end it will all backfire, on all of them, when it will be headline news, in all the papers, all the NAMES of all of the City and State Officials, and "Rabbi Segals RODEF Jihad, incitement" .... people who actively HELPED the great "cover up" of this Felons Crimes - which makes them all, co-conspirators.
Dear Friend,
Your recommendation of BELLVIEW is not so simple because the secular Law does not allow getting a criminal "off the hook" based on him being "mentally deficient" just because he has a reckless uncontrollable temper.
Our Legal system regularly puts people in prison, the type of which are obviously not exactly "100%" OK.
The Law only accepts the "insanity plea", only if you can prove that they can't tell right from wrong. A very difficult thing to prove.
In the Jewish Halacha the Halachic Criteria of a "Halachic Shoteh", is also not the typical Wild Temper Tantrum Person or otherwise Reckless individual. Halacha is very strict as to the Criteria of a "Halachic Shoteh".
Most criminals who obviously have "something wrong" with them it's unfortunately, not enough to qualify them, as a Shoteh, to get them "off the hook".
Why is it that the fact that the Rebbe said of R' Osdoba that he will remain the rov until Moshiach is being ignored?
How is it that in the campaign to stand up for the kovod of R' Schwei, R' Osdoba would be any less deservant of the absolute respect of anyone who calls himself a Lubavitcher Chossid?
Wondering Jew,
Contrary to the campaign to stand up for the kovod of R' Osdoba, which is headed by Katzman, (Brook and Boimelgreen), where you hear from Katzman's "cesspool mouth", every Curse Word and Kal Davar Assur, against Rabbi Schwei...
You will never hear anything but the Biggest Derech Eretz for Rabbi Osdoba, even from those who are very close supporters of Rabbi Schwei.
The Supporters of Rabbi Osdoba, want to totally DESTROY and ELIMINATE Rabbi Schwei.
VS.
The Supporters of Rabbi Schwei respect all Rabbonim alike and never demanded NOTHING MORE THAN a 50/50 Power Sharing of the Badataz.
Who STARTED all the Machlokes in the Badataz?
Katzman, Brook and Boimelgreen who refused to allow a Simple, Fare Relationship, to Share the Badatz Equitably 50/50 with the ONLY TWO Elected Rabbonim who comprise the Current Real Badatz.
Neither one of the two Elected Rabbonim, has even one ounce, more or one ounce less, power or "say", in anything in the Badatz, than the other Rav.
Katzman, Brook and Boimelgreen's refusal to PLAY FAIR, are the ONLY CAUSE and CONTINUED CAUSE, to this day, of the Entire Machlokes in the Badatz.
I don't blame those supporters for talking deragatory about Rabbi Schwei, don't forget they constantly hear this kind of talk and writting from their Leader.
Meshulem:
You have just added a whole new batch of co-conspirators - city and state officials.
Are you referring to our local elected officials that have given Moishy so much moral support?
Does this also implicate the fellow who abandoned the court case? And his family?
This will be a major catastrophe; it will be decades before any elected official sticks his neck out for this community again.
By the way, why is there no demand to open the books of the CHK - the "community hechsher?"
As for Shlomo's call to boycott Rubashkin meat, it has begun and it is snowballing. Besides being free of corruption, Feigelstock meat is less fattening.
Farbrendt,
I was referring to the officials from City Hall and others who called the Captain of the 71 pct to ask him "to be nice" to the Convicted Felon, Rubashkin, and only give him DAT (Desk Appearance Ticket) Booking -
A Corrupt Double Standard, instead of the standard Booking with an Overnight Stay in Jail, to see a Judge in the Morning - which is THE STANDARD, common, every day procedure, for any citizen charged assault especially someone with a record of a Convicted Felon.
When City Hall, asks the 71st Pct for such special preferential treatment for a convicted felon, it makes people question their motive.
Din Shoteh vs Din Rodef
Okay, I stand to be corrected.
Either way, this is really a
messy situation. Anyone who
has a history of repeated violence
and criminal behavior needs to
be dealt with - the sooner the better.
Nebach, Such a fine family(I hope that's correct), and this BLACK SHEEP embarrasses them like that. Unfortunately, this generation has seen many wonderful families (even Rebbes) put to shame like that.
Moishe stand strong against these hooligans.
They really mean "your boss" but are using you out.
Netzig,
Would you be so kind as to elaborate regarding misquoted sources?
MM,
I am not sure what the Netzig was talking about but I tell you my own observations:
I learn Rabbi Osdoba's Letter Like I learn a Tosfos, with the greatest Hadras Hakovod and Beiyun Rav.
I have looked up Rabbi Osdoba's Marey Mekomos, the Last One on the Page in his letter where he mentions Shaalos and Tshuvos Chacham Tzvi, where he says, that the Chacham Tzvi says, that:
" an Elected Rav who is a Nogeah Bedavar, can Pasken even on Matters where the Rav IS a Nogeah Bedavar."
I am not a Rav, so I can't be sure if I understand the Chacham Tzi Accurately.
But Lefi Anyas Daati Hakelusha and I have heard this also, from many Rabbonim, that if you try an actually, really look up, this Chacham Tzvi, you will Lecheora not find any such Chacham Tzvi.
In fact you will find that the Chacham Tzvi says, Lecheora, 100% exactly the OPPOSITE!
I am sure that Rabbi Osdoba is right and I just don't understand.
Please help me understand.
Most of the what people are saying here is very confusing. Is it true that one of the Vaad Hakohol members who was in this case with Nash pulled out because he felt his family was under pressure?
If that is the case how can such a person be trusted to hold such an important position in the first place. That is, if he can be blackmailed, he should never even step into a position of such great responsibility and authority.
And why is it that people would vote for him again. Is this the highest standard we should have to elect our leaders??
It would be absurd to say it is individuals (mentioned earlier; Brook, Boymelgreen, Katzman,) for a Rov's decision. Doesn't a Rov pasken according to halacho and not according to the whim's of individuals.
And also, how does a person know when to take someone to the police here? I was taught that permission has to be given by a Rov after hearing it from witnesses or the people involved. Am I wrong?
Do you just tell people to call the police if they are fighting? No Din Torah? Doesn't a Rov have to evaluate each case on its merits? Like the degree violence, coming to a din Torah, etc. Is this rule only for Crown Heights or also in Eretz Yisroel?
Is it just naive to think this way? This is all very confusing.
The misquoted sources are the Chacham Tzvi that says befeirush that a Rov can not be nogai bedovor
In a case and the Chacham Tzvi cites a certain situation and explains that in that particular situation the Rov would not be noigaia bedovor. That case has no bearing on this case here.
However, since the Chacham Tzvi explains how "a certain case" is not considered nogaia bedovor , that means that were the Rov to be Nogaia bedovor he would not be able to rule on it! ! !
In the letter that defends Rubashkin it states in the name of the Chacham tzvi that a beis Din kovua can rule even where there is a negio.
Just the opposite of what the Chacham tzvi says.
This is besides the point that there is no Beis Din kovua in the badatz as long as Rabbi Ozdoba wont sit with Rabbi Shwei.
To Rev Sholom and MM
I also tried to understand the mareh mokoim but couldn't.
Rabbi Osdoba said that in the case of Bais Din Kovuah the dayan or rov can be a nogea bedovor.
But the Chacham Tzvi shows how, in his case, the fact was that the Rov was NOT a nogea bedovor.
In my humble mind comes out that from the Chacham Tzvi is mashma just the oposite that a nogea vedovor is always posul even in a case of bais din kovua and in his case the rov was not a nogea bedovor.
Unfortunately, I encounter many of this mare mekomos in previous psokim of Rabbi Osdoba where the poskim he brings to prove his psak say exactly the oposite.
I would believe that someone who he trusts is looking up for him the sources! ודו"ק
Also I couldn't find the Igros Moshe he brings in the same letter. Maybe you did.
Please share it with us.
I don't have a chocham tzvi, if someone does please post it. I am also not finding the Igros Moshe but the tshuva quoted is a long one and I have not yet had time to go through the whole thing.
if there was a way for me to upload a PDF of the Chacham Tzvi i would do it.
Hey, wise guy!
Call me hooligan if you want, maybe
I am. But don't put words in my
mouth that are not there. I don't
mean his boss, especially if we're
talking about Aaron HaTzadik.
Dear Friend
Rubashkin doesn't have any boss who is a "Tzadik"
Rubashkin also doesn't have any boss who's name is "Aaron".
So have no idea what your talking about.
Rubashkin likes to think of himself as King but he really is the exact opposite "a Meshores" who works for his boss and must do everything his boss tels him and his boss controls him fully (almost).
He actually has several boss's non who's name is Aaaron, here is a partial list of his boss's
1) Brook (he is everyones boss and feared most, by all even feared by ......)
2) Boimlegreen (Issues Orders and Bankrols....)
3) Katzman (Machlokes Strategy Planning and Machlokes instigation and letter writing - but subservient to the above)
and several others - non of who's name is anything to do with any aaron or any tzadik of any sort
talk about pissing match... Don't all you people have ANYTHING worthwhile to discuss?
THIS is where the problems start from.
Making the Rebbe's Shchuna what it is supposed to (a non corrupt place) be is actually the most worthwhile thing to talk about..
That is IF you are a Real Lubavitcher.
אני קאך זיך בקראונהייטס ע"ע - למרות הקרירות כקרח הנורא דאנ"ש שי' בזה
כ"ק אדמו"ר מה"מ
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